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The eMarketing Digest
© 1996 - 2008
Library of Congress
ISSN 1522-6913

Published by
Webbers Communications
686 Keene Rd. Suite B
Winchester, NH 03470

                     The E-Marketing Digest
                      Volume #2, Issue #14
                         May 24, 1997
                    Gary K. Foote, Moderator


Table of Contents

+ Moderator Comments

    "Memorial Weekend Delays Part IV"

+ New Subjects

    "Mailing list sponsorship prices"
       - Sunni Freyer

    "The Visibility of Ads"
       - Julie Frost

+ Ongoing

    "On Spam"
       - George Matyjewicz
       - Sunni Freyer
       - Bruce Gabrielle
       - Ted Husted
       - Kathy Burns

    "Marketing with Little Control"
       - Yury Lyalin

    "Censoring E-mail"
       - Dave Thuillier

+ The Corkboard

+ Introductions


                       Moderator Comments

The advent of Memorial Day weekend, and it's attendant family
gathering, as usual, took me by surprise.  I just never seem to look
at the calendar in terms of when it's time to take time off.  Call me
a workaholic and my family will agree.  In any case, I have been
helping to prepare for the weekend's events for the last couple of
days and, as a result, Part IV has been delayed.  It will be
published on Tuesday, May 27.  "Better late than never", as my
Grandfather used to say.

I will compile a Digest on Monday from the weekend's posts, so the
regular flow will not be interrupted.

Please take a moment this weekend to reflect on, and remember all
who have lost their lives in past wars and conflicts.  May that
long list of names never grow larger than they are right at this

Gary K. Foote

                          New Subjects

From: "Cynthia (Sunni) Freyer" 
Subject: Re: eMarketing Part III

 Morley Chalmers wrote:
>What's a reasonable range to expect to pay per thousand exposures in
>mailing lists? And just how effective are they?

>I notice I skim right past the ad at the top of e-Marketing's newsletter
>(as well as other newsletters I receive). I've had to force myself to go
>back and really look -- not automatically assume I know what's in there.
>I'm obviously heavily conditioned (as I assume others are as well) to
>ignore ads.

>So, at the end of the day, what's the track record on these things, as
>well as their typical cost per thousand?

Morley, I did a considerable amount of research to set the rate
for advertising in our recently launched free e-mail newsletter,
Canine Times.  The response I received from all corners was
that e-publishing is still so much in its infancy, that a "standard"
has not been established.  Despite this, I do see ranges of
fees being set -- so despite the absence of a true standard,
one is, it appears, in the making.  On the low end, we see
fees as low as 10cents per person on list (but rare).  On
the high end, I seen costs as high as $1.50 per subscriber
head.  The more targeted a list, the better it is for the
advertiser (less spillage) and, correspondingly, the higher
the cost to reach one subscriber.  In our situation, we
have three classification of ads.  The rates range from
25 cents per subscriber to our high of 65 cents per
subscriber.  To provide an advertiser some ability to
plan, we change fees only at the start of each month.
Many others base fees on the number of subscribers
you reach at the time your ad is run.  We also
encourage space insertions (30 day advance max)
which means an advertiser can buy at this
month's rate but insert next month, taking advantage
of the higher subscription number and lowering
their cost per person reached.

You mentioned in your post that  you skim
past commercial messages at the start of the
e-letter.  With out start-up sponsor -- a maker
of a voice mail ID system for pets -- we tested
this.  The minute we switched their message
to a spot lower in the pub and between
editorial copy, site visits and product purchase
increased.  We no longer
sell space at the top of the newsletter!  We
also tested different ads and ad types
for this sponsor.  As expected, adding
a deadline for a discount/special
offer increased activity.  Also copy that
leaned more toward explaining product
benefits in "story form"  also generated
more interest.    Hope this is helpful.

Sunni Freyer
CFNA, Inc.: PR/Marketing -- online/offline
1-year Flat Fee Unlimited Consulting Services &
Publishers of Canine Times, the e-letter
for dog owners.

              ***  NEW POST - The Visibility of Ads  ***

Subject: Re: eMarketing Part III

Hi Gary,

Thanks for this terrific forum you have provided for all of us interested in
marketing on the Internet!

Morley Chalmers  wrote:
>I notice I skim right past the ad at the top of e-Marketing's newsletter
>(as well as other newsletters I receive). I've had to force myself to go
>back and really look -- not automatically assume I know what's in there.
>I'm obviously heavily conditioned (as I assume others are as well) to
>ignore ads.

You know, for lists such as these, I find myself paying special attention to
the ads! For one thing, *I* subscribed to the list, because it is a topic I
am interested in, and so *usually* the ads are targeted to me! (Isn't that
why businesses sponsor these things in the first place? ;-) And on another
note, because I am interested in marketing/advertising, I want to check out
the ads and see what I like and don't like as a consumer. Then I can
hopefully incorporate what I think works when writing ad copy.


Julie Frost
Sage Web Creations          *****    "Designed to get you more business."   ***   Member - HTML Writers Guild
Sign up for our FREE Internet Marketing e-newsletter - go to:


From: George Matyjewicz 
Subject: Re: The E-Marketing Digest, V2, #12

At 07:46 AM 5/22/97, you wrote:
>From: Russ Cobbe 
>Subject: SPAM discussion
>Thought I would add my (Canadian) .02c worth on this subject.
>As many people have brought up I find it hard to understand how a US
>law would apply to me in Canada.  I think the whole issue is getting
>way out of hand.  I sent an email to someone yesterday who had
>previously contacted us and got the following response:
>"You can address me personally.  But that doesn't change
>the fact that I have no idea who you are.  I am not
>a customer of Inline nor did I request any information
>from Inline.  Thus your message is SPAM!!  Remove me
>from any and all mailing lists you have.
------ snipped ------------------------

What we have found is folks forget that they requested information from
you, then get annoyed when you send it to them.  We have an Automated Press
Release service and visitors register for update information.  Invariably,
when we send an update, we get at least one who accuses us of spamming
them.  As a result, we put a notice up front that tells them they signed up
for this update.

What is really annoying, as Vicki Simons said earlier is when they send a
note to your ISP and not you.  Hell, I'll remove you - just tell me who you

BTW  on the Net Canadian .02 cents is worth the same as U.S. (or any place
else) :-).

George Matyjewicz

George Matyjewicz, "Rainmaker Extraordinaire"
------------------ NOW ON-LINE OR BY FAX------------------------------
GAP Enterprises, Ltd.
"7 Steps to a Successful Implementation"

               ***  NEW POST - Spam & Capitalism  ***

From: "Cynthia (Sunni) Freyer" 
Subject: Re: Spam & Capitalism

I guess I have been out of LA and living in the country for
too long.  My brain must have deteriorated.  For you see,
I just don't get it.  I have, as a PR/marketing person for
25 years, always been under the perhaps mistaken
impression that people "vote" for products/services
with their pocket books. Now obviously one has to
present the product/service to the audience so they
can "vote."  Ok, so the spammers have presented
their stuff -- a harsher word was on the tip of my
ladylike tongue.  We all know the purpose is sales.
So no one votes with their pocket book.  Why, then,
if that occurs, would anybody in their right mind
continue to sell when there are no sales?  Isn't this
how selling in a capitalistic society works?  What's
legislation got anything to do with it?  Let the
marketplace respond, which it is clearly doing.  What
I've always noticed is that things simply take time and
as humans we want to rush in and fix it now.  I
believe the problem is being fixed.  On its own.
Thru simple human response.  Thru not "voting."
If we are going to craft laws mandating certain
human behavior, perhaps we all would be a tad
better off with legislation demanding patience
and allowing human behavior to take its course.
But then again, I'm now just a simple, country

Sunni Freyer
CFNA, Inc.: PR/Marketing Online/Offline

                ***  NEW POST - Spam Legislation  ***

From: Bruce Gabrielle 

Conrad Dubois Jr. wrote:
>You really need a dose of reality if you think the government can enforce
>laws against spamming right here in the U.S., never mind from other

There are some difficulties in enforcing any anti-spam laws.  But,
I think an anti-spam law will still be effective for two reasons:

1. Enforcement is not really that difficult.  There are enough technical
professionals with an active dislike for spam to ensure a lot of
Also, since the fines for spam could be $500 per message, an ISP which
receives a couple hundred spams has a strong incentive to pursue those
through their own legal department. Also, unlike other crimes, email
electronic footprints which can be tracked back to the sender.

2. Some laws are essentially self-enforcing.  There are laws which, by
existence, effectively deter the majority of infractions.  An example: a
municipal law against picking flowers in public parks.  While it may be
difficult to enforce and costly to pursue, the fact that picking flowers
is illegal is enough to dissuade all but the most determined citizens.
the case of spam, Cyberpromo makes its money by selling its services to
other businesses.  That sale will be harder to close when what they're
selling is illegal.

>Wake up! I realize that some people have had nightmare experiences
>with spam. However, with a little effort, you can rid yourself of most of
>it or at least have the majority of it go to a mailbox that you rarely

Time wasted deleting spam is the least of spam's costs.  Even with
software, the ISP still gets hit with hundreds of thousands of spam
incurring costs for bandwidth to route it all into dev/null.

And that's just the garbage spam.  Consider the results if more
began compiling their own lists and sending commercial email.  Consider,
example, the results of posting to a list like E-Marketing, thus ending
up on
the marketing lists of hundreds of businesses at once.  If you block such
you won't send an unsubscribe request, and those hundreds of businesses
keep sending commercial email to your account every month.  None of it is
and your ISP pays the bill to shuffle it around.

These are not minor considerations that can be solved by hitting the
button.  Nor by using spam-blocking software.  Spam needs to be stopped at
the sending end, and for the reasons I've already outlined, legislation is
an effective alternative to laissez-faire.


Bruce Gabrielle
Internet Marketing Specialist,
I accept *targeted* commercial email at

            11 Steps to a Profitable Website


                ***  NEW POST - Spam Legislation  ***

From: "Ted Husted" 
Subject: Anti-spam Legislation

>>The fact that the majority of spam now comes from the US will soon
be a non-fact as more and more non-US companies move into the

The only reason any of us receive any amount of spam is because it is
(sadly) effective. Somebody is buying this crap, which induces other people
to send more crap. Now, I don't really know much about them thats
responding to spam, but if it all starts coming from foreign companies, the
response rate is liable to dwindle below the nuisance cost of the Internet
mail bomb brigades.

Perhaps what we need is a "Just Say No to Spam" crusade. If this stuff
stopped working, there would be a lot less of it flying around.

- Ted Husted (

------------- Too much work - Too little time? ------------
A custom database puts information at your fingertips.
A Web site puts you at your customer's fingertips.
A local area network and e-mail server put it all together.
                 On the Web:
              By e-mail:

                ***  NEW POST - Spam Filters  ***

From: Kathy Burns 
Subject: Re: Spam Filters

>About the "spam filter"...
>Now, here's a wild idea, if all the legal ramifications of delving
>into private email could be worked out. How about a program to do a
>high-speed search of, say, all email arriving for users at
>If it discovers a number of identical messages above a certain
>threshold within a short period of time [say 50 messages --
>ABSOLUTELY IDENTICAL] then it would block off delivery of all other
>instances of that mail until a human had had a chance to glance at a
>copy of the "offending" item. This would not help the first 50
>people, but spread over several 100,000s of people or even millions
>this would not be so bad, as the 50 people would change every time.

>I would love to hear comments and feedback on this idea.
>Edwin Hayward
>Edwin Hayward, Tokyo, Japan
>Internet Gold-Rush:
>A Beta Tomorrow:
>Missing Link:

   AOL actually did something of this sort not even a year ago and
they were sued over it.  If I remember right it was ruled
unconstitutional. The courts decided it was ok for each individual
person to block or not block, and decide who/where/what to block,
but AOL could not do a mass blockage since it was not technically
their mail.  Evidently there are plenty of people that actually
like getting spam mail, or at the very least they dont want someone
else making their decisions for them.  I have to agree to that one
myself, this is also why I do not like the idea of the government
getting involved. If "unsolicited mail" is not defined well enough,
I feel that there will be potential problems of all sorts. For
instance, someone sends a note by accident,  I have gotten mail
from people I do not know and they think they are sending to someone
else, could I cry spam from this? I have also gotten mail from
people in my home town that just want to introduce themselves or
they think its neat that others in the same town are online. It
can be irritating yes, but it is usually amusing, either way,
it is *my* choice whose mail I receive and read, not someone elses.

I have heard of other Online services running into the same legal
problems with trying to block spam, I am not familiar with them but
on the AOL side I do know that they instilled areas on their service
that members can go to and choose to block mail. AOL starts them
with a list of known spammers to be blocked (blocking is default
set to on) and members can turn the blocking off or add more
addresses/sites to the list if they want.  Members also have an
area that they can customize their email even more by putting more
blocks on, choosing to receive no mail at all and so on. This seems
to have created a somewhat happy medium so far.  There are still
complainers yes, and some spam still gets through.  I think it is
almost impossible to please everyone at once, but I also think some
of the new wave Internet users out there today are a little bit
unrealistic in their expectations.....are they lobbying to stop
junk mail from arriving in their postal box every day or week? If
they get it what do they do? Trash it. On the computer you dont even
have to bag up the trash and carry it away :)
My 2 cents.

Kathy Burns                                     (520)294-3420
SasEz! Publications and Design, PO Box 65563, Tucson AZ 85728
Professional, Reliable office services from Typing, Resumes,
Research and Writing To Creative Design (Brochures, Fliers,
Newsletters and More!)In Print or Online.  

          ***  NEW POST - Marketing Without Much Control  ***

From: "Yury V. Lyalin" 
Subject: Re: Marketing Without Much Control


 Tereson Dupuy wrote:
> My situation is this......I have little control over these web sites and
> have to do almost all marketing without altering the web site.

I think, that for solve your problem, you can buy Adgrafix virtual
web server and use Web Site Manager, pre-installed on it for to
full control over these site directly through the web. For more
info visit on the web at:

    With best regards,

     Yury Lyalin,
     Account Executive of Adgrafix.
     (independent contractor)

              ***  NEW POST - Censoring E-mail  ***

From: Dreamer 
Subject: Re:  Censoring e-mail

 Andrey Yastrebov  wrote:

> Censoring e-mail! Thousands of officers looking at e-mail and deciding
> what is good and what is bad! How about freedom of speech?
> I don't think this matters who censors are. If they do exist and if they
> do read your e-mail, that's enough.

The issue isn't necessarily censorship or freedom of speech. I feel
the issue is accountibility and who is going to pay for the cost of
filling up the Email post box. When I receive junk mail via the
postal service I don't pay to view it and determine if it is worth
my time. When I receive spam I have already paid to download it. I
have no choice in this. I can't call my ISP and tell them "I really
didn't want the message so send it back and don't charge me."

There is a cost to both myself and to my ISP. My ISP of course turns
the cost back to me via a higher monthly provider fee. My cost, of
course, is connect time, download time, and storage fees. It may be
rolled into one package but the cost is still there.

I can forsee this cost getting greater and greater as more BULK
Emailers get into the act. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind
"TARGETED" email. What I have is a problem with my name being picked
up from my posting to a moderated news group where I replied to (for
ex.) "needed - wholesaler in tee shirts". The following day I get
spammed with twenty to fourty messages, none of which have anything
to do with my post. Vitamin MLMs, Golf, Stock market ads, amazing
prelaunch opportunity, Bio Technology, et al. Most if not all of
these messages do not even have the courtesy to give a proper reply
address. To top it off... They pass my address to others who also
spam me for the next month or more also without addresses. Stupid
way to sell if you ask me.

The issue therefore is:

"Why should WE pay for someone to send US something WE didn't want
in the first place." Put the cost back in the hands of those that
want to bulk spam and I think that the industry as a whole will self

My 2c worth
Dave Thuillier
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++      dreamers_den
  Collectable Card Games                 Models & Hobby Materials
    Role Playing Games                       Unique Tee Shirts
             Fantasy & Sci-FI Books and Audio Books

                          The Corkboard


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