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The eMarketing Digest
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Library of Congress
ISSN 1522-6913

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                     The E-Marketing Digest
                    Volume #2, Issue #15 - A
                         May 27, 1997
                     ----------------------
                    Gary K. Foote, Moderator

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Table of Contents

+Moderator Comments
    "The Definition of Spam"

+ Ongoing

    " On Mailinglists"
       - Margaret
       - Margaret
       - Robert Smith

    "On Spam
       - Glen Barry
       - Alvin Davis
       - Andrey Yastrebov
       - Mark Whalen
       - Bruce M. Kelly

    "Marketing without web control"
       "Hal Croasmun

    "Postmaster Direct - Opt-in
       - Ryan Scott
       - Glenn Barry

---------------------------------------------------------------------

                      ---------------------
                       Moderator Comments
                      ---------------------

There have been a lot of people who have subscribed since we posted
the list's compiled definition of SPAM.  Many have written asking,
 "...what is spam?"  We're not exaxtly the final authorities here,
but after a couple of weeks of discussion we came up with the
following...



                      ---------------------
                             Ongoing
                      ---------------------

From: margaret 
Subject: How Effective are Sponsorships of Mailing Lists & Newsletters?

Hi Gary & Fellow E-Marketers,

In the latest issue #13 Morley Chalmers asked : -



What's a reasonable range to expect to pay per thousand exposures
in mailing lists? And just how effective are they?



I believe prices range from $20 to $40 per thousand exposures but
declines rapidly after a certain subscription base because as the
readership grows, the focus correspondingly diffuses as the editor
of the newsletters or moderator of the mailing lists caters to more
and more readers with diverse interests.

There isn't much point asking folks how effective a particular mailing
list or newsletter is for promoting your products or services.  What
works for one advertiser may totally flop for another!

It is pretty easy to test out mailing lists.  Post a message and
promote your product and service via your signature file in such
a way that you can track how many responses you get.  I have for
instance deliberately prefixed my signature below with a reference
e-mark@workingSMARTER.com and can tell how many folks check me
out as a result of this post.  Sponsors should always set up their
advertisement such that they can monitor how many folks actually
responded.

Folks who are interested to learn how they can likewise monitor
how effective or not their banner exchanges, cross links, newsgroup
postings and newsletter sponsorships should check out following
article :-

    

Above article explains how to set up bridge pages as a cost-free
method of monitoring advertising effectiveness on the Net and has
been published in several newsletters.  We had also received many
acolades from folks who had until they read our article been at a
loss as to how to verify if they were wasting their money.


Margaret
http://workingSMARTER.com/sponsors.html
http://workingSMARTER.com/click-through.html
Email e-mark@workingSMARTER.com for free
subscription to WorkingSMARTER Newsletter



             ***  NEW POST - Targeting Lists  ***



From: margaret 
Subject: Which Mailing Lists or Newsletters to Sponsor?

Hi Gary & Fellow E-Marketers,

Bob Rankin of Tourbus in above #13 Issue stated that : -



Several people have mentioned success in sponsoring newsletters.  I'd
like to raise the point that targetting is not always the right answer.
People who sign up for these opt-in lists to receive ads about a certain
area of interest may get tired of ads for the same (type of) product
over and again.

Sometimes it's better just to go for the numbers, hitting a large
general interest audience.



I am one of Bob's 80,000 subscribers and would like to thank him for
his cyber tours.  I have once in a while found some website of interest
while much of the time, I barely glance at his newsletter before
thrashing it. This is however only to be expected and is in no way
a criticism.

As I had mentioned in an earlier post, there is a direct correlation
between subscriber base and focus.  There is just no way every issue
of the Tourbus can remotely interest all 80,000 of his subscribers.
It's simply impossible.

There are thousands of newsletters and mailing lists on the Net.
Unless yours is a mass appeal product or service, like music CD's,
books or computer games, it would be most imprudent to invest your
precious dollars just going for the numbers, unless you manage to
place a sponsorship ad in a mass appeal publication for a fraction
of the normal rate.  There is just no getting round needing a niche
medium if yours is a niche product or service.

Most important of all, sponsoring newsletters especially if they are
quality business ones is a far cry from purchasing opt-in lists such as
PostDirect and WebPromote.  The opt-in lists are no more than a blatant
commercial and contains no other beneficial editorial content while
newsletters while featuring sponsor ads are primarily full of valuable
content.  It's thus somewhat unfair to bundle them up in the same breath
as though they are identical.


In conclusion, advertisers should do their homework, analyse if it
make sense for them to go for the numbers or focus on quality leads.
Are you trying to create brand awareness or secure sales leads?  Such
questions are critical in helping you decide how and which publication
you should sponsor rather than concerns with size of subscription base
(exposures) or rate per thousand.


Margaret
http://workingSMARTER.com/sponsors.html
http://workingSMARTER.com/click-through.html
Email e-mark@workingSMARTER.com for free
subscription to WorkingSMARTER Newsletter



      ***  NEW POST - Content rich mailing lists  ***



From: Robert Smith 
Subject: Content Rich Mailing List

I started a monthly newsletter 3 months ago and it's doing so well I
thought I would share what is working for me with all of you.

I don't accept advertizing of any kind.  I do accept short articles from
anyone with something free and/or useful to the home business Internet
marketer.

I feel that if you give someone useable information they will want to go
to the source of that information for more.

I often get requests to publish ads for people, and their willing to
pay. I tell them to send me the most important truth or shortcut they
know about marketing on the Internet and include their sig file, if it's
good enough I'll publish it.

I am now getting so much excellent information I am going to a weekly
format soon. I'm also learning a lot.

The feedback I'm getting is that this approach is also working better
than advertizing for the folks that get published in the newsletter.

What do I get out of this you ask?  I have gotten so much business I now
am forced to choose my customers rather than accept just anyone like I
used to do. Long term this promotes trust and add stability to my design
and promotion business.

Best Wishes
Bob

To subscribe: http://www.arrowweb.com/graphics/free/subscribe.html
To Post: Mailto: sfeinc@continet.com
    _\|/_
    (O O)
_oOO_(_)_OOo_  FREE IN CYBER SPACE
http://www.arrowweb.com/graphics/free/
--------------------------------------
Robert Smith Smith's Family Enterprises Inc.(541) 689-1847



      ***  NEW POST - spammers spam list spammers spam me  ***



From: Glenn Barry 
Subject: And U are one of them

What gets me is even the spammers spam list spammers spam me.
Just have a look at these two that came in today.

1.
From:     75950058@compuserve.com
Reply-To: 54675112@compuserve.com
      To: 54675112@compuserve.com
Attention Internet Marketers (..forgive the intrusion):
30,000,000 (thirty million) E-mail addresses - only US$149 !
see http://www.usfirms.com/worldwide
Sincerely,
Worldwide Marketing Group

2.
From:   MagiMail@janel.navicom.com
Reply-To:candyman@vapornet.com
      To:candyman@vapornet.com

_/_/_/ NEW! 600k "AOL-Free" E-Mail List _/_/_/
As you may be aware, AOL has implemented a filter that
blocks *any* domain that send more than 500k through
their system. Since the majority of lists contain as high
as 75% AOL addresses, what are you paying for?

Don't leave your business high and dry... get the newly
released 600k "AOL-Free" E-Mail Hot List now!
[x] Hot, responsive names culled from our own list, as well
     as home and small business Web sites from the four
     corners of the Net!
[x] No AOL addresses (now blocking bulk mail)
[x] No Compuserve addresses (also blocking bulk mail)
[x] Fresh! Approx. 60 days old
[x] No Genie addresses
[x] No .EDU, .ORG, .GOV, .JP, .DE or .NO addresses
[x] High deliverability, awesome response
[x] Filtered against the infamous "Blue List of Internet
     Whiners, Complainers and Troublemakers"
[x] One-address-per-line format, .zip files
[x] FAST DELIVERY! No waiting for snail mail--you receive
     download instructions by e-mail to as soon as your order
     is processed!
_/_/_/_/ LIMITED TIME OFFER _/_/_/_/
Don't wait--take advantage of this red-hot list before your
competitors do... only $59.95!

Terrifying isn't it.
Glenn Barry



      ***  NEW POST - The cost of spam  ***



From: Alvin Davis 
Subject: Comment E-mail Cost

>From: Dreamer 
>Subject: Re:  Censoring e-mail

>The issue isn't necessarily censorship or freedom of speech. I feel
>the issue is accountibility and who is going to pay for the cost of
>filling up the Email post box. The issue therefore is:

>"Why should WE pay for someone to send US something WE didn't want
>in the first place." Put the cost back in the hands of those that
>want to bulk spam and I think that the industry as a whole will self
>regulate.
>
>My 2c worth
>Dave Thuillier

The Cost of e-mail is like the cost of not having Information.
Example:If you have a computer and a modem @Juno.com will give you free
e-mail.I know there are 3 or 4 other free e-mail accounts.

Also give Cyberpomo credit for making AOL go to $19.95 UNLIMITED per month.
Before they(AOL) loved spam,they made millions.Only when other unlimited
ISP started getting there customers did they change.

Now with this information why would DELETING an unwanted e-mail cost anything???
If you never used e-mail the whole month,it would still be $19.95
I thought this forum was for ways to make E-mail Marketing work,I see more
reason why it want work.

E-mail Marketers Step Up!!!

*****************************************************
Get Paid to Market Online!!!
http://www.orbisnet.com/AdMasters/8ADA01326.htm (ID#8ADA01326)
adavis@mscomm.com



      ***  NEW POST - The cost of spam  ***



From: Andrey Yastrebov 
Subject: The Harm of The SPAM

Hi folks,

Many of you say the spam is harmful because it's very expensive,
but I think nobody tried to calculate the cost. So, I'll try to
do that now. Let's see. Average netter gets 2-3 spam messages a
day of about 3K each, which gives 10K. This is rather high estimate,
because most of the people who didn't show their address, don't
get spam at all. Getting all this at 28.8 modem is about 2 sec per
day, which gives 1 min per month and 12 min per year. Most of the
users have unlimited connection and don't pay at all, others have
free time limit and don't pay if they don't go out of it, but
let's suppose you pay $5 per hour (that much!), so you'll pay $1
a week, no more. This is not too much compared to other advertising.
Say 10% of my cable bill is just for wathching tele ads. This gives
$3 a month and thus $36 a year - 36 times more. If you calculate how
much is the cost of downloading hundreds of banners on the net, you
will see that this is also much more expensive. So, by its impact on
customers' pocket spam isn't much expensive now. I think some users
may pay much (like I used to pay $0.04 per K of delivered mail), but
in average it's very cheap.

Let's look now from whole Internet perspective. Most of ISP pay for
connection, not for traffic, so it is hard to evaluate cost of traffic
itself, but let's suppose you want to buy traffic. If you buy T1
connection which will cost you $1000 per months you'll get 100K
per sec, which is 6M per minute, 0.36G per hour, 8.6G per day and
finally 250G per month, that is per $1000. So, 1G of traffic is
about $4. If spammers spam 10,000,000 users with their 10K impact
per day, it gives 100G per day for all their impact on the net -
this is just $400 per day, or $12,000 per month. Any measures to
stop them will cost much much more out of tax-payer's pocket.
If somebody is concerned about net traffic - the best way is to
fight against guys sending voice or movies over the net, or provide
phone calls via Internet connection. These really slow down the net
and are much more harmful and costly to everybody.

So, spam isn't expensive at all. Why is it harmful? Because it may be
offensive - and this is the problem. If respectable person gets e-mail
which say he was all the life dreaming how to earn money with MLM,
this may offend him. If some lover is waiting a message from her
girl-friend with impatience and gets spam, he may be offended as well.
Bad thing that spam is unavoidable and you cannot do anything about
it. Once spammers got your e-mail address, you will get spam forever
and it will try to offend you more and more. That's why some people
hate spam. I hate it too, but ... not everybody hates it.

Yes, not everybody, and that's why it exists.

There is very old legend about dolphins saving people by bringing them
toward the land. Actually dolphins just take people and carry them
no matter where. However only people saved can tell us about this.
Those brought to open ocean will keep silence forever.

The same happens with spam. Most of the people just ignore them,
some small percent may like spam, but we hear only from those who
hate it, because those who bought from spammers will not tell to
everybody how happy they are. But, it's not very good to make one
of 100,000 happy while the rest of them will hate you.

So, spam is more ethic problem, this is problem of merchant
responsibility for advertising and so on. Legislation won't help
here as legislation cannot make everybody tell true. Thechnical
solution won't help because spammers will always find some work
around. The only way to fight against the spam is education.
It will takes years, but I'm afraid this is all we can do.

Andrey.



                ***  NEW POST - On spam  ***



From: Mark Whalen 
Subject: On Spam

Dear Gary, and fellow readers/writers of EMD,

Iíve been following the spam-hating posts for the last several EMDs, and
several thoughts have come to mind. First, whatís the big deal? There
are several ways that come to my "newbie" mind (six months on the www)
as to how to avoid getting burdened with too much of it. One is to
modify your e-mail address so that when you post to newsgroups, the
software that grabs it will grab a bad address. Iíve seen NOSPAM added
to lots of e-mail addresses, with the message "To reply, remove the
NOSPAM". After all, arenít the ngís the place where the spammers get our
addresses in the first place? I donít believe they are picking them up,
one at a time, from our sites, or from posts on places like this, do
they? I know I didnít start getting any until I posted to my first
newsgroup.

Then, of course, thereís always the second e-mail address for spam. In
the snailmail world, I have, for many many years, always kept a second
address at a Mail Boxes Etc. or even the P.O. for giving out. I NEVER
give out my home address, not even to the IRS, the DMV, or my insurance
companies. No one has ever complained, and Iíve never missed an
important document. So why not follow that same logic on the Ďnet?
E-mail addresses seem virtually free and effortless to get. Very cheap
at the worst. Have one for the public, and one for the personal use of
friends and family.

Next, I believe much of spam is valuable. I have subscribed to lots of
things, gotten lots of good leads and shareware, from studying my spam.
The only ones I kick right out the door are the MLMs.

Another issue Iíve never seen addressed is Hormel Meatís right not to
have the registered, copyrighted name of one of its best selling
products attached to a totally non-related object, and used only to
constantly disparage. (You never hear spammers calling their mail spam,
do you?) I think, if they wanted to, Hormel could file suit in federal
court for libel, and get a cease and desist order against any and all
who refer to UCM as spam. After all, you donít see Ayds weight control
candy on the market any more do you? No, because of the name!
Psychologically, if you hate spam (the mail), and say so long enough and
loud enough, people will begin to hate Spam, the meat (even more) and
sales will (perhaps already have) suffer. Have I got a point?

To finish, all this talk of government intervention is ludicrous. Just
silly. Itís like a mouse climbing the leg of an elephant with rape on
its mind. We here in the USA generally think that when what we say goes
here, then it goes pretty much everywhere. No way. Especially when weíre
talking the WORLD WIDE WEB. Iíve seen written in a recent post that even
if off-shore services did the spamming, the beneficiary of the spam
would be prosecuted. That one made me grin! Have you any idea what an
ordeal it would be to get a case through the federal (it would have to
be federal) courts to beat up on an American company because somebody in
South Africa sent an e-mail (or a million) to people here who didnít
like it? In theory, sure, it makes sense. Try real life. Try proving
that the American company paid the South African company. PROVE it. Not
just point to the ad, and say, "Well, they must have..." So yes,
off-shore spamming will thrive, if the government tries to get too cute.
And the politicians are just in it for the votes. They could not care
less. Theyíve all got staff to sort out spam for them anyway, (if they
even have a public e-mail address).

Then thereís all that business about getting the ispís to spool, sort,
and whatever. Want to see isp rates go through the roof? Want to see
your real mail get lost in cyberspace perpetually? Want to make an
already intricate, complex system, a REAL mess? It seems to me that
those spending so much time worrying about spam, writing about it,
attempting to support laws against it, would better spend their time
pressing the DELETE button on their browsers, and get on with their
lives. If spam doesnít work, it wonít survive. If it does, then youíll
have better luck stopping a freight train by dragging your bare feet on
the ground. Hey, if you want the picnic, you're gonna have to deal with
the ants. Just the way it is. Always has been, always will be.

If spam-hatters wanted to put all that venom to some truly beneficial
work, forget getting the government to legislate spam, and start trying
to get them to stop subsidizing tobacco companies!

To finish on that issue, I recall a sign in my Republican fatherís real
estate office that went something like this. "The government should not
and must not do for the people what the people should and must do for
themselves."  --  Abe Lincoln

Mark Whalen, President
PresMark Publishing Co.
http://www.geocities.com/hotsprings/1654
"How to Quit Smoking Without Willpower or Struggle"

                  - Continued in Part B -
---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------

                     The E-Marketing Digest
                    Volume #2, Issue #15 - B
                         May 27, 1997
                     ----------------------
                    Gary K. Foote, Moderator

---------------------------------------------------------------------

                  - Continued from Part A -



      ***  NEW POST - Anti-spam legislation  ***



Subject: Re: Spam & Capitalism
From: Bruce Gabrielle Why, then,
>if that occurs, would anybody in their right mind
>continue to sell when there are no sales?

Two reasons:

1. Since email is virtually free to send, a spammer could send one
million email ads and if they find just one buyer, the venture is
profitable.

2. Companies like Cyberpromotions make money by selling spamming services
to other businesses. What do they care if it's effective? They just care
that the advertiser is willing to pay to determine its effectiveness.

>Isn't this
>how selling in a capitalistic society works?  What's
>legislation got anything to do with it?  Let the
>marketplace respond, which it is clearly doing.

Capitalism without some government interference has never worked.  As
soon as Capitalism replaced Feudalism in the mid 1700's, it became
apparent that without government regulation, Capitalists would exploit
workers and overuse natural resources.

It's only through legislation that there are minimum wage laws, limits on
deforestation, restrictions on monopolies, rules barring false
advertising, fair labelling practices, and even small claims courts. The
market doesn't always have influence over the sellers.

In this case, the marketplace is responding by demanding legal
protection.  History has shown Capitalists cannot always be counted upon
to do the right thing.

--------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Gabrielle
Internet Marketing Specialist, net@revenue.com
I accept *targeted* commercial email at zzzz@emailex.com

            11 Steps to a Profitable Website
          http://www.emailex.com/netrevenue.html
--------------------------------------------------------



           ***  NEW POST - Spam comparisons  ***



From: "James M. Kelly" 
Subject: Spamming?

Hello and greetings,

First of all, I would like to thank everyone for a great list,
especially Gary.

Now, all this hype about spamming is really annoying to me.
You recieve "junk" snail mail everyday and throw it in the
garbage. You then have to take that garbage "out" and a garbage
man has to haul it away to sit in a heap of rotting trash for
years to come.

And.... nobody complains

You recieve countless telephone calls from people soliciting
services/products over the phone lines.  These are annoying
and almost make you feel obligated because of the "live"
person on the other end, of course all you have to do is hang up.

And... nobody complains

People start recieving ELECTRONIC marketing material, something
that can be multiply selected and deleted by moving your fingers
a few inches, with a couple of mouse strokes...

And... THE SPIT HITS THE FAN

Come on people, there are companies overseas that are spamming,
how are laws regulating spamming in the US going to "control"
these people.  The internet is seen as something that is
uncontrollable, this makes people try to control it.

I must say, that as of this date, I have never spammed anyone and
have multiple businesses that are doing fine without it. I will
NOT cripple on-line marketing by contributing to this foolish
anti-spamming regime.

Thats all for now.

Thanks for the list everyone!
James

Mailto:jmkelly@dynacom.net

________________________________________________
Check out one of the best FREE business search engines
on the web!

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---Coming soon virtual url's! Shorten that url to a fraction of
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      ***  NEW POST - Marketing without much control  ***



From: Hal Croasmun 
Subject: Re: Marketing Without Much Control

>Tereson Dupuy  wrote:

>My situation is this......I have little control over these web sites and
>have to do almost all marketing without altering the web site.

You're right, that does make it tough.  You can do a lot when you are able
to trade ads, banners, links on your site.  But there are other marketing
actions you can take that will make you very successful.
>
>Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can continue on an ongoing
>basis to promote these web sites other than the general listings with
>search engines and directories.  There is only so much of that to go
>around.

Here's two which can easily increase your success:

    1.  Find the discussion lists that are appropriate to each web site's
industry and post regularly to them.  You will increase the visibility of
the site instantly without ever changing a thing.

    2.  Interview the owners of the sites you manage and then write an
article.  Email sites that would benefit by having your article on their
site.  Naturally, the agreement is they get the article as long as your
credits are listed at the bottom.

Hope this assist you.

Hal Croasmun
mailto:ywf@eden.com
*********************** Free Web Site Evaluation ************************
YourWebFuture will give you a 20 Point Evaluation of your site in exchange
for a link to our site.  http://www.YourWebFuture.com/evalindex.htm

Subscribe to BYB Tips for New ideas to promote your business every day.
To Subscribe:  mailto:majordomo@eden.com  In the body:   Subscribe byb
***************** Free "Build your Business Daily Tips" ******************



      ***  NEW POST - Postmaster Direct Opt-in  ***



From: "Ryan Scott" 
Organization: NetCreations, Inc
Subject: PostMaster Direct OPT-IN


> From: Glenn Barry 
> Subject: Re: The E-Marketing Digest, V2, #6
>
> > Bruce Gabrielle Wrote
>
> > 2. Pay for opt-in lists, such as PostMaster Direct and Email Announce.
> > Before you pay anyone to send your message bulk, ask them how their
> > lists are compiled.  If they're opt-out lists (ie. the receiver is
> > subscribed without their consent, and must send a "remove" request)
> > stay far away from those people.
>
> OK POSTMASTER DIRECT!!
>
> They spammed me today with a "Opt Out" message claiming it was not
> spam.
>
>  TO UNSUB: -forward- this entire message to
> deleteme@postmasterdirect.com> 



> on call to service your computer 24 hours a day.> 
>
> Now I have never "opted in" so how come I'm getting ZD net spam??
>
> What's more it appears they have subcribed me to the following:!!

(it says you are not necessarily subscribed to all the lists below!)

> deletion info. you are not necessarily subscribed to all the lists
> below
> **|NewsLinx/COMPUTERS-COMPUTER_SYSTEMS_BEST_BUYS|gbarry@sydney.net
>
> [moderator snip of 20 more of these things]
>
> Their header says
> UNSUB ALL: -forward- this entire message to
> deleteall@postmasterdirect.com
> (be sure to *forward* the ENTIRE message, or it will not unsubscribe
> you!)
>
> That's a threat!


No, it's not a threat, its just how the system works.  It works even if
you forward your mail through another system.  Listserv doesn't.
That's why we did it this way.  The way it works is it reads the line
with the ** in it, and gets your email address from there, instead of
from the 'From:' line of your email, which could be different than the
email address you subscribed with.  It's a feature, not a bug, sorry
for the confusion.



> It seems I subscribed to two NewsLinx lists
>
> Newslinx: Internet-Ezines
> Newslinx: Internet-Internet Law
>
> and newslinx use Netcreations (Postmaster direct) who have now decided
> I am fair game for anything they choose to send me at 15 cents a time.
> Now if this keeps up I will get to the stage of changing my email
> address and never giving it to anyone again.


ZD sent to several lists.  One or more of them happened to be lists you
subscribed to.  PostMaster Direct has always been handling NewsLinx
lists, as it states on their site, and in the confirmation email that
went out.  You will NOT be sent any mail unless the sender wants to
send mail to the either of the 2 NewsLinx lists you subscribed to.

As it says at the bottom of the message, 'you are not necessarily
subscribed to all the lists below'.  You are definitely subscribed to
at least one of them, however.


> Now list members one of our own says this!
>
> > comment:"Alvin Davis" 
> >
> > I've used Postmaster Direct,I think they're one of the best.  The
> > problem I've found with all these companies is how to monitor the
> > results.  Problem#1-If you use your e-mail address or 800# in the ad
> > your may get flamed to death.
>
> Alvin I feel like flaming you for attitude alone. If you don't put
> your real email address in you deserve flaming!

We recommend that you use another email address, or you could be
spammed by someone yes.  There's people who will take any email address
that ever comes there way as fair game.  That's not RIGHT, but it's
what they do.

As for flames, even we get them, despite being opt-in.  People either
get subscribed by someone else (and ignore or don't understand the
confirmation email), or forget they are subscribed if they haven't
received mail in some time, simply wake up on the wrong side of the
bed, or are just in 'flame-mode' while wading through all the spam they
received from spam organizations like CyberPromo.  We generally discuss
their subscription with these people and figure out what went wrong and
have received apologies in about 1/2 the cases (they remember they
subscribed, etc).  We always unsubscribe people who flame from all
lists as well.

> > Solution- I'll never use this type of marketing,until a good system
> > is in place for me to know the e-mails were sent to real opportunity
> > seekers.
>
> OK you redeemed yourself a little.
>
> email SPAM is driving me nuts. If postmaster direct is the best then
> we have real problems and as an industry email will pay the price.

Glenn, the system worked exactly as advertised, I just think that
having multiple lines on the bottom of the message confused you as to
what you were subscribed to.

I checked, and right now you are subscribed to no lists with that email
address.  I can't go back and see which ones it had you subscribed to,
but according to what you say above, you subscribed to 2 NewsLinx
lists.  The mailing went to one of those lists, but the footer will
show all lists.  That's just the way it works, it doesn't mean you are
subscribed to all those lists.  I'll try to clarify the text.

Ryan

______________________________________________________________________
      Ryan Scott - rscott@netcreations.com - 718 522 1531
          - Reinventing Direct Marketing on the Net -
       NetCreations, Inc - http://www.netcreations.com/
                - Targeted 100% OPT IN Email -
PostMaster Direct Response - http://www.postmasterdirect.com/
             *be sure to quote me in your reply*



      ***  NEW POST - Postmaster Direct Opt-in  ***



From: Glenn Barry 
Subject: [Fwd: PostMaster Direct OPT-IN]

Dear Ryan

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

I am, very cautiously, interested in the idea of "opt in". I am "opted
in" to a number of newslists, organizations, and corporations. As an
on-line journalist I also get a lot of reader mail from my stories,
not to mention both on and off target press releases. I even get
personal mail on occasions. (Plus of course buckets full of spam).

I think I am fairly tolerant when it comes to unsolicited mail. Recently
the daily volume of spam has started to become a serious time and cost
factor to deal with. I have yet to receive any spam that could be
classed as remotely of any interest or use to me.

Now the basis of my complaint in this case is that I "opted in" for two
subjects via Newslinx whom as you explain is mail via your service
NetCreations, PostMaster Direct .

These were:-
1.  Internet-Ezines
2.  Internet-Internet law.

The mail received from ZDnet related to a totally unrelated subject, in
this case a PC doctor type of thing.
It did not relate to either of the subjects I expressed interest in, to
me this makes it spam.

In no way could their message (spam) be construed to be related to
Ezines or Internet Law.
Therein lies the issue as I see it. Did I get "opt in" information or
spam?

Now you are say in this reply "You will NOT be sent any mail unless the
sender wants to send mail to the either of the 2 NewsLinx lists you
subscribed to".

Take the words "unless the *sender wants* to send mail to either of the
2 lists".

So the decision maker is a "sender" who wants to send to me an off
target/off subject mail. IMHO this changes it from "opt in mail" to
"spam". The logical extension to this position seems to that the MLM
guys and the other spammers will want to send email spam to "opt in"
lists *they select*, even where they are off subject. What is the point
then of "opt in"? (Already I am an "opt out" as a result of this).

On the confusion regarding the 20 odd lists it appeared I had been
subscribe to. The disclaimer "you are not necessarily subscribed to all
the lists below" is not reassuring when your (my) email address then
appears in every line. As I now understand how your system works, I will
complain no more. I acknowledge again your willingness to review your
text so you donít frighten the sheep so much.

Please note that had the mailing been on subject I would not have
complained. If "opt in" is to be a success then the list holder IMHO has
an obligation to ensure that the mail remains on subject and in keeping
with the list as it is promoted. Ezines and Internet law has nothing to
do with a mail about "servicing your computer 24 hours a day".

I will now leave the matter for the list to throw around. I will be
interested to see other views on this.
I do thank you for your reply and explaination. At least you guys have a
reasonable attitude and a return address.

Glenn Barry.


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