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The eMarketing Digest
© 1996 - 2008
Library of Congress
ISSN 1522-6913

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                     The E-Marketing Digest
                      Volume #2, Issue #18
                         May 29, 1997
                     ----------------------
                    Gary K. Foote, Moderator


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Table of Contents

+ New Subjects

    "Promoting an Online Store"
       - Dave Thuillier
       - Gary K. Foote

    "Abusive and threatening flames"
       - Paul Schilling
       - Gary K. Foote

+ Ongoing

    "Opt in, PM Direct"
       - Ryan Scott
       - Ted Husted

    "Murkowski legislation"
       - Sunni Freyer

    "E-mail Filtering"
       - Morley Chalmers

    "Spam Revisited"
       - David Lapides

---------------------------------------------------------------------

                      ---------------------
                          New Subjects
                      ---------------------

From: Dreamer 
Subject: Building a store on-line

Trying to get back on track...

I have a small store approx 2 years old. My product line predominately
consists of different gaming materials (Role playing games, collectable
card games, pewter miniatures etc.). I have been on the internet for
approx. 2 months now. I feel that there is great potential for expansion
of my business via the web. I have started to write my own site but it
is still a long way off. I wasn't aware I had so many different products
.

Ideally, a setup like amazon.com would be great. (If I had thirty
programmers... well?) The problem is that I am a one man operation and
available time is a major issue. If I can get profit out of the site I
could then hire additional help (to get more profit, to hire...). I
figure I will have a basic site on line in about a months time. Feel
free to scan my start and email your opinions (good as well as bad).
I desperately need the input as I have only one browser, Netscape.
Although things may look good (to me) on Netscape I'm not sure how
the general populace with other browsers may feel. The site is mostly
text with a few small graphics interspersed, so it is quick to load.
I am hoping to keep it this way.

I am well aware that for my site to generate any money I need to
generate  traffic. To do this I am looking for ideas on
how to identify and contact potential customers (aren't we all?).
Bulk email messages (spam) is definately out. My market is too
narrow. Posting to usenet could be feasible if I could find the
appropriate groups. My ISP is somewhat new and doesn't provide a
lot of the news groups yet. However, they are willing to provide
access to any groups that I can identify as being useful. Any
suggestions as to which groups I can look into?

Is anyone aware of any email groups that may fit into my category?
Although I am not an expert at my product line useage I might be
able to provide occasional content with my email sig attached.

Also... Is it appropriate to start connecting to search engines now
or should I wait until I have my site completed? Do the search engines
look at the site when it is submitted or when a search is requested?

You can respond to the list or email me in private.
Thanks,
Dave Thuillier
Owner, Dreamer's Den
--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://www.conknet.com/~dreamers_den/  mailto:dreamers_den@conknet.com
  Collectable Card Games                 Models & Hobby Materials
    Role Playing Games                       Unique Tee Shirts
             Fantasy & Sci-FI Books and Audio Books
Quantity Discounts available


[Moderator Reply]

Dave,

Finding mailing lists with a related topic to your products isn't hard,
it just takes time.  I suggest going to The List Exchange
 and using their 'Other Lists of Lists' page
to locate the right ones.  Many of the lists of lists linked to are
searchable by keyword.  Others require you 'drill down' through
categories.  In either case, you will find lots of good possibilities
with about an hour's research.  Contact the list-owners for sponsorship
prices, or, if you have the additional time, become a participant in
the lists you choose.

Newsgroups are not too different.  You can use your news reader to
search for text-strings that you might think would be used as part
of a group name where your market might hang out, but if your ISP
has a short list of available groups you would be better off going
to DejaNews and using their site to find posts that include your
keywords.  Each 'hit' will include the name of the group it was posted
to, so you can build a list of possibles for your ISP that way.

A search I just ran using the keyword AD&D returned 28255 'hits', each
with a link to the post and the name of the group to which it was
posted.

Dejanews is at:  http://www.dejanews.com

Gary K. Foote, Moderator


           ***  NEW POST - Abusive & Threatening Flames  ***


From: PSchill641@aol.com
Subject: Abusive & Threatening Flames

I would like to address a point that is new to this group and that
is the way people respond to spam.

There is talk about how bad spam is and how it is such a terrible
inconvenience to have to click the mouse button to delete it.

Lets turn the focus for now to how some people respond to the ads,
I have enclosed some of the milder ones I received recently.

********************************************************************:
DAMNED SPAMMERS!  Next post gets 10000 replies!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Hey Bu**wad.
          I don't want your crap and I sure as hell don't want
your spam s*** in my email, so cut the crap.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


                remove...Law Suit to follow
------------------------------------------------------------------------

PLEASE DO NOT SEND ME THIS SORT OF JUNK!!!!!
OR ANY SORT OF JUNK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sending mail to a ton of unrelated people who didn't show interest on the
internet (spamming) is something no one should be doing.

If you get hundreds of e-mails in response from the people you sent to,
don't be surprised.

Don't ever send me anything again!
------------------------------------------------------------------------

F*** YOU A***HOLE!

[repeated many times]
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I HATE SPAM MAIL!  DROP DEAD!  BE ASSURED I WOULD NEVER (EVER, EVER) BUY
ANYTHING AS A RESULT OF BEING SPAMMED.  MAY YOU ROT IN HELL WITH ALL
SPAMMERS.
***************************************************************

I have received much worse than this and the point is these type of
people are saying things that are not true and aren't very nice.

I paid a service to send out an ad for me and I got death threats,
blow up your computer threats etc. The things these people are saying
are clearly illegal and immoral and vindictive ..............all
because of a very small and tasteful ad placed

I have sent the same ad by postal mail and in the newspaper and not
had one retaliatory comment.

How about it folks.....is it OK for these people to respond in such
an abusive manner? What can be done about the jugheads that send
you back 1000 messages of  nasty crude and rude remarks?

Paul Schilling


[Moderator Comment]

Paul,

I've also received abusive posts.  I think they are an expected
side-effect of any e-marketing campaign.  It is the threatening
flames that are the most unsettling.  There are people out there
in cyberspace who don't realize that threatening someone with
violence or damage is a criminal act in the US.  If someone were
to threaten my life in a flame I would take that threat very
seriously and get the authorities involved.  The welfare of my
family and myself will not be threatened without some kind of
protective & preemptive action on my part.

Threats to the 'welfare' of my computer are also something I
take seriously.  My computer is my career and if someone were to
intentionally cause my computer to become unusable by mailbombing
me I would let their ISP know about their activities ASAP.  This
is also a criminal act in the US.

Flames are one thing, threats are another thing entirely.

Gary K. Foote, Moderator


                      ---------------------
                             Ongoing
                      ---------------------

From: "Ryan Scott" 
Subject: Opt-in

> > > We just tested 5,000 PostMaster Direct opt-in names that had signed
> > > up to get news about our product:  ZERO response.  NADA.  NILCH.
> > > $300 wasted.  And they said we had a great ad  ;-)


Not every offering to every list is successful.  This is just common
business sense.

A mailing of $300 should be considered a *test*.  In the real world of
postal mailing lists, a list company will not talk to you for less than
5000 names.  Then you've got to merge/purge, print the pieces, buy the
postage, and mail them out.  That would be considered a *test* as well,
but the cost is going to be greater than $5000...  You'd do several and
then pick the lists that were cost effective for further promotion.
For obvious reasons this activity was resticted to companies with big
budgets.

We've managed to bring the cost of a test down to $200.  Everything
I've ever read about direct marketing is that you should *test*
different lists. And yes, some list do not draw for some offers.  Yet
other offers to the same list, or the same offer to different lists
draws quite well.  It would be great if we could guarantee 100%
effectiveness, 10% response rates with every mailing.  But that's just
not how it works, not in our industry or with just about any other
marketing vehicle you choose.  While we have experience with the lists
and the offers going to the lists, every new mailing is a learning
experience for us and the mailer.  We can give a demographic, and we
can give a self-selected target, but we cannot necessarily guarantee
sales.

We *have* had countless success stories using Opt-In email.  ichat
software mailed to 14,000 web designers and sold $50,000 worth of
server software in 5 hours, including one sale for $20,000.  They
continued to mail to that list, different offers (there's *testing*
again), and found it profitable for about 7 total runs.  Ziff Davis got
a 9% response rate on a mailing to our lists.  There's been mailers
claiming 14%, and even 40% response rates.  Some large, some small
companies.  But one thing they all did before rolling out to entire
lists was to test various lists.

As for recipients, we've had recipients mail us and tell us they
really like receiving the mail.  One subscriber wrote to me personally
and said that his first 2 messages actually contained useful
information and he was contacting the companies to possibly make a
purchase.  On the other hand, there *are* people who don't buy
anything (of course!).  This is the nature of lists, and marketing in
general.  I will not make excuses for the lists, as most feedback has
indicated that the responsiveness of the lists is very high, much
higher, at a much lower cost, than postal lists.

______________________________________________________________________
      Ryan Scott - rscott@netcreations.com - 718 522 1531
          - Reinventing Direct Marketing on the Net -
       NetCreations, Inc - http://www.netcreations.com/
                - Targeted 100% OPT IN Email -
PostMaster Direct Response - http://www.postmasterdirect.com/
             *be sure to quote me in your reply*



               ***  NEW POST - Opt in, PM Direct  ***


From: "Ted Husted" 
Subject: PostMaster Direct OPT-IN

>Ryan Scott Wrote:

>>As for flames, even we get them, despite being opt-in.  People either
get subscribed by someone else (and ignore or don't understand the
confirmation email), or forget they are subscribed if they haven't
received mail in some time, simply wake up on the wrong side of the
bed, or are just in 'flame-mode' while wading through all the spam they
received from spam organizations like CyberPromo.

I'm a happy member of several PostMaster Direct categories. One thing I
miss, though, is a clue in the subject line that it is a PostMaster Direct
mailing (like [PMD] or something). The From line is the sponsor, so it's
hard to tell the spam from the PMD without opening the message, and by then
it's too late!

I may just need to set up another email address and resubcribe. (Happily I
have unlimited email accounts!).

- Ted Husted, Fairport NY (http://husted.com/ted).

------------- Too much work - Too little time? ------------
A custom database puts information at your fingertips.
A Web site puts you at your customer's fingertips.
A local area network and e-mail server put it all together.
              On the Web: http://husted.com/
              By e-mail: mailto:support@husted.com


            ***  NEW POST - Murkowski Proposed Legislation  ***


From: "Cynthia (Sunni) Freyer" 
Subject: Re: My response to Proposed Legislation

While I am sure that the following could have been cast with greater
thoroughness and wisdom, I nevertheless thought others might want to see
the e-message I have prepared as a draft for sending to Senator Murkowski
on the proposed legislation.

Oftentimes, it is helpful to draft a letter that many can send.  Perhaps
others on this list can help me revise this so that I and those of us
who wish to can all use it as a letter.  If no one is interested, than
I simply would appreciate revision suggestions so I may send it on my own.

Thank you.

~~~~~
On a recent post to the E-Marketing discussion list, of which I am a
participant, it was stated that  Senator Murkowski strongly encourages the
Internet  community to make specific recommendations or comments about the
pending legislation on controlling spam.   As the President/CEO of a Public
Relations/Marketing firm, we hold to the highest of standards and ethics in
any Internet-related work and we advise all clients against spamming. In
fact, should they consider it, we immediately respond by informing them
that they will need a five-digit program from us to counter the negative
image created by spamming.

However, we are also adamantly opposed to the legislation on spamming as
currently being presented.  The definition of spamming is still the subject
of much debate within the Internet community.  As I stated in the
discussion list cited above: all spam is unsolicited e-mail, but not all
unsolicited e-mail is spam.  Your legislation does not take this into
account. While the bill's intent is certainly good, its current wording
will effectively hamper all cold-call e-mail, even when it is done in a
manner that results in no flames, nor irritation.

To date, my firm has generated many clients from online work thru
unsolicited targeted e-mail.  We have also sent brief, polite --yet
unsolicited -- queries to targeted individuals to ask if they would like to
receive information on a particular product/service.  Never has our work
resulted in any complaints to ISP's, nor flaming.  A prospect is always
someone "unknown" until they have developed a relationship with a firm.
Thus, how will the initial prospecting behavior even be able to occur
within your current legislation?  From a marketing and PR point of view, we
always encourage research first -- to gather important audience
information.  I would heartily suggest that before you push forward that
you truly seek out information on how many in the Internet community
support and want your legislation.  I would also pay great heed to the
definition of spam, so that if effected, you are not also curtailing the
very behavior needed to grow the business community and deliver
services/products needed by consumers.  Another point also needing
attention is the global characteristics of the Internet.  You may succeed
at stopping not only unethical but ethical behavior on the Internet, but
the hue and cry shall still continue when the "bad apples" simply go thru
the loophole into countries where you cannot enforce US legislation.

 I would much prefer that the problem be dealt with by the Internet
community itself, thru PR programming, thru internal programs we create as
a group, and through allowing consumers to vote against spam with their
pocketbooks (no sales/no value), rather than adding to the books yet
another piece of government legislation. This is important legislation.
Please give it great thought before pursuing.  Thank you.

Cynthia (Sunni) Freyer		Voice: 509-332-3956
CFNA, Inc.: PR/Marketing		Fax: 509-334-2525
				email: cfna@pullman.com
  ~~Plus...Publishers of Canine Times, the free e-mail newsletter for dog
owners~~
      		owner-caninetimes@po.databack.com


            ***  NEW POST - E-mail Filtering  ***


Subject: Re: filtering eMail
From: Morley Chalmers 

On 5/27/97 6:02 PM Gary Foote wrote:

>Other software clients use a variety of methods to filter e-mail.
>Anyone care to explain a different package's procedure?

Claris Emailer has an Mail Actions Window in which you can designate a
label (both coloured and named). For instance, with E-Marketing Digest, I
have it setup to be marked under Web Promotion. It still appears in my in
box (in contrast to Eudora's Mailbox approach) but it's clearly marked
and sorted.

Or I can direct it to another folder immediately, including the delete
folder. I can also send an auto response, especially useful when I'm
away. Everyone who's in my address book also gets marked.

Spam generally turns up among the "unknowns". However, I can go further
with Spam. I can examine the routing for the message, reading where it
started from. If a certain domain constantly sends me spam and not much
else, I can filter for that domain name and dump all contents directly to
the trash. Then I never get to see it.

I'm not really into promoting anyone else's software (but my own) but
Emailer has many advantages over Eudora. Emailer 2.0 has been out for the
Mac for a while, but for the PC I believe there's a 60-day free trial
available on the Claris website at www.Claris.com

M

====================     7OFFICE for small business
The first
integrated billing       All-in-One Invoicing, Purchasing, Receivables,
& contact manager        Call Reports, Scheduling, To Do Lists, Letters
for small business
====================     morley@interlog.com -- http://www.7Office.com



                 ***  NEW POST - Spam Revisited  ***


From: "David Lapides" 
Subject: Spam vs. Unsolicited Commercial Email (UCE)

I have read with great interest the discussion of "What is Spam?" and
I want to add my $.02.

Spam can be more properly called Unsolicited Commercial Email (UCE)
with the Unsolicited part being the operative word.

But first let's take a look at the word "Commercial."  What if some
whacko cult started to send out bulk email in an attempt to attract
new members? Is this a "commercial" message? What if it was the
Catholic Church? Or Amnesty International? (assuming they weren't
soliciting donations) Obviously an email message doesn't have to be
commercial in order to be considered Spam.

As far as the term Unsolicited is concerned there is what might be
considered a scale of "unsolicitedness". The most extreme version
would be a bulk mailing sent out to email addresses that are unknown
to the sender. This type of email is the worst offender and is
usually of the "Make $1,000,000 in two weeks!" type.

Most of the people sending this type of mail are fairly
unsophiticated (think about it) and soon find themselves deluged in
flames with nary an order in sight.

Now let's say you visit my website and register with an email
address. Or maybe you buy a product from me and fill out a warranty
card. Then I send you an email announcing a major change to the
website or perhaps an offer to purchase a product upgrade. Is this
Spam. IMHO, it would not be. We have established a relationship and
you have given me your (tacit) consent by providing your address.

I think that many people will call a message SPAM based on just how
annoyed they get from the message. Let me give you an example. Let's
say I am browsing through the alt.music.tmbg newsgroup (dedicated to
my favorite band They Might Be Giants) and read a message from
someone who loves the drummer. How upset would the person be if I
sent that person a UCE asking if they wanted to buy a pair of his
drumsticks I got at a concert? Probably not very. What if I sent him
a UCE trying to sell him vitamins or something totally unrelated? Now
we're getting into SPAM territory.

Now there are some unreasonable people who would say that every email
commucation from anyone they don't know is SPAM and should be
stopped.  Those people should unplug their computers and crawl into a
hole. Until we get some sort of email blocking technology akin to
call block, you are going to recieve unsolicited email.

It is impossible to stop a dedicated Spammer by passing laws that
make it illegal. He will just move offshore. It is also impossible to
block a Spammer from sending you email using current technology.
Online services (such as AOL and Compuserve) as well as individual
ISPs can automaitically discard email before it reaches your mailbox,
but this opens a whole new can of worms of censorship.

In closing, there is a lot of sensationalizing of this issue and many
newbies are getting confused and afraid. Instead of rattling sabers
and predicting the demise of the internet, we should ramain focused
on educating the public and working to set standards of
internet marketing behavior that will work for everyone.

Comments?


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