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                     The E-Marketing Digest
                      Volume #2, Issue #23
                         June 4, 1997
                     ----------------------
                    Gary K. Foote, Moderator


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Table of Contents

+ Moderator Comments

+ New Subjects

    "Bulk e-mail solution"
       - Graeme Whittet
       - Moderator $.02

+ Ongoing

    "Responding to Spam"
       - Andrey B. Yastrebov
       - Michael W. Kelley
       - George Matyjewicz
       - Conrad Dubois
       - Moderator $.02
       - Cheryl Gilbert

    "Marketing techniques"
       - Michael Stokes

    "Quid Pro Quo
       - Barry Shultz

+ The Corkboard

+ Miscellaneous

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                      --------------------
                       Moderator Comments
                      --------------------




                      ---------------------
                          New Subjects
                      ---------------------

From: Graeme Whittet 
Subject: Re: "Bulk Email Solution!"

BULK EMAIL SOLUTION !

The main problem with Unsolicited Commercial Email (UCE)
is how pathetically untargeted it is. Receiving dozens
of messages for products we have absolutely no interest
in is the "NOISE" factor that makes UCE so annoying.
However, I'm sure most of us have a few categories which
we wouldnt mind getting the odd message about. For example,
if you're into golf, you may not mind getting a brief
message informing you of a great new website devoted to
all things "golf".
(You may never find it otherwise,amongst thousands of
search-engine results!)
The same would apply to fishing,skiing,mountainbiking,
computers,software,your career,...stamp-collecting ;-)
etc.,etc.,etc.

The IDEMC (Internet Direct E-Mail Marketing Council)
being established, is a start, but their simple yes/no
to receiving UCE or not doesnt exactly provide much
of a choice. A more elaborate solution has been suggested
which would provide for "tagging-codes" for dozens or even
hundreds of categories, so netizens can select to receive
certain targeted messages, while being on the "Central
Remove List" for all other categories.
You would be able to make changes to your preferences
anytime,by email.

Most UCE Marketers would be happy, as they would have a
smaller,but much better targeted audience. So when they
upload their lists to the "Remove List" Site prior to mailing,
their list would be returned with only the addresses of
those who are happy to receive messages in that category.
A perfect targeted market...a Direct Marketers dream come true!
And agreeable to the majority of netizens too!
Lets accept UCE is here to stay. Why not encourage an agreeable
solution such as the above.

Dont encourage the "hysterical" ban-it-all minority.
The latest Web Poll found 70% of netizens didnt mind UCE,
while a very vocal minority of 30% hate it with a vengeance.
Even though I may find UCE annoying sometimes, I am much more
annoyed by the antics of the "flame-first,ask questions later"
brigade! These self-imposed "cyber-cops", when they "mail-bomb",
are actually the only ones doing anything illegal.(It is illegal
to purposely interfere with the day-to-day running of any
legitimate commercial activity) All they have accomplished so far
is to put UCE-Marketing into the hands of a few thick-skinned
entrepreneurs hiding behind "bulletproof" ISPs.  If UCE Marketers
must adhere to the code of ethics set by the IDEMC to take
advantage of the filtering system at the IDEMC Site, everyone will
benefit. Please, lets work together on REAL solutions agreeable
to both sides of this issue.

Graeme Whittet.
PC-Lifestyle Marketing.

[ Moderator's $.02 ]

Graeme,

I agree with much that you have written here.  I have a question
and a comment...

Question:  When you write;

>A more elaborate solution has been suggested
>which would provide for "tagging-codes" for dozens or even
>hundreds of categories...

Who has suggested this and to whom?  Is this being discussed at the
IDEMC or is it a 'grassroots' offering?  Also, what is the URL for
the IDEMC?  I can't seem to find a listing anywhere.

Comment:  I like, and am a proponent of, 'tagging' UCE according
to category.  A universal category list would go a long way toward
making intelligent filtering possible.

Gary K. Foote, Moderator


                      ---------------------
                             Ongoing
                      ---------------------


From: "Andrey B. Yastrebov" 
Subject: Re: SPAM

> When I am Spammed I send an email to the person, the ISP, every computer
> server the spam was routed though, the business that owns the copyright of
> what they are selling, the spam program maker if I know it, the company
> that they are using for an autoresponder, and every email address within
> the spam, and to SPAM-L.
>
> If the person is in the habit of spamming, the ISP often writes back to me
> that thier account has been canceled.

This is not very good way of doing things.

Because of the people who fight with spam in such a way, spammers are
forced to fake their e-mail address and they try to hide their origin,
so some of them become completely untraceable. If you remember, 3-4
years
ago, most of the spam messages came with true return address. I gave up
responding to spam a long time ago, but I guess now 90% of spam come
from wrong addresses. You are forcing them to do this!

As a result, we get much more spam, because if spammers hide their
addresses, they cannot handle REMOVE requests and they keep sending
you mindless flow of letters, you never can stop.

> As far as those "send an email and I'll take you off the list" type of
> spams, I think they are still spam and still a waste of my time. They
> should not be sent in the first place.

Probably if you won't write 10 letters in responce to any spam (30-50
letters
a day) you'll waste a little bit less time on spam :)

Regards. Andrey.


              ***  NEW POST - Responding to Spam  ***


From: "Michael W. Kelley" 
Subject: Responding to Spam


> When I am Spammed I send an email to the person, the ISP, every computer
> server the spam was routed though, the business that owns the copywright of
> what they are selling, the spam program maker if I know it, the company
> that they are using for an autoresponder, and every email address within
> the spam, and to SPAM-L.


Well George, welcome to the world of spammers! Best report yourself,
because by sending to "every email address within the spam" you have
sent unsolicited email! Wouldn't it be far easier and simpler to just
hit the delete key rather than spending all that time to email all those
people, many of which are more than happy to add your email address to
their list, which you just voluntarily sent them?? Other than the
inconvenience that unsolicited email makes for most of us, the only
difference between SPAM and the circulars I get in my mailbox all week
long is that fact that SOME users pay to receive the spam. Filtering
eliminates that problem, IF you can keep up with all the domains being
used for mail. Maybe the ISPs can put together either a general filter
service, or a user configurable filter like AOL has done. Even then, I
have to continually add domain names and their various mutations to my
filter to keep out the unsolicited email. The problem will never, ever
go away. The trick is to learn how to deal with it, just like the junk
stuck in the Sunday and Tuesday newspapers, the Tuesday postal mail, and
the inserts in the statements with billings.
Remember also that REPLYING to be removed, VERIFIES your address to
those looking to gather addresses. That delete key is my favorite email
tool anymore.
--
http://www.netforward.com/poboxes/?userfriendly
SPS Pagers & Access One - NetOpp Internet Services
FREE Prepay phonecards - Wireless Security Systems w/alarm
Recycle/Reuse Printer Ribbons, Laser-Inkjet-Toner Cartridges

A Public Service - Have you seen Stacey Lynn Balas, missing since
11/26/96?
http://www.cleve-oh.com/greeting/stacey.html


              ***  NEW POST - Responding to Spam  ***


From: George Matyjewicz 
Subject: Responding to Spam

At 09:11 AM 6/3/97, you wrote:
>From: George Blake 
>Subject: SPAM
>
>When I am Spammed I send an email to the person, the ISP, every computer
>server the spam was routed though, the business that owns the copywright of
>what they are selling, the spam program maker if I know it, the company
>that they are using for an autoresponder, and every email address within
>the spam, and to SPAM-L.
>
You are wasting you time and effort and bandwidth when you get spammed by
any of Sanford Wallace's groups, i.e., CyberPromotions, et.al.  He is his
own ISP and will only send you an auto responder thanking you for
contacting them and bombard you with more!  One lady on one of my lists got
killed using your approach, to the point she had to change addresses.


George Matyjewicz                           "Rainmaker Extraordinaire"
Managing Partner
http://www.gapent.com/gap/rainmaking.htm
GAP Enterprises, Ltd.                        mailto:georgem@gapent.com
http://www.gapent.com
Tel: (201) 939-8533 Ext 821              Fax: (201) 460-3740
Automated Press Releases: http://www.gapent.com/pr
Specializing in Professional Firm "Rainmaking" programs.


              ***  NEW POST - Responding to Spam  ***


From: cjd@141.com
Subject: Responding to Spam


> From: George Blake 
> Subject: SPAM
>
> When I am Spammed I send an email to the person, the ISP, every computer
> server the spam was routed though, the business that owns the copywright of
> what they are selling, the spam program maker if I know it, the company
> that they are using for an autoresponder, and every email address within
> the spam, and to SPAM-L.

George,
You must have an enormous amount of time on your hands to go to that
length! What you obviously don't know is that most spammers are using
cloaking software to hide their true ISP and they are sending mail through
"other" servers, not their ISP. As far as the autoresponders go or the web
host of any URL given, well the spammers with any type of intelligence are
using a "bulletproof" autoresponder or website, which means you can
complain all day long and NOTHING WILL HAPPEN!

If you really want to spend your time doing this for every piece of SPAM
you get, go right ahead. A much more productive method that many people
now employ is to simply send the spammer a message back about your
products or services. Just make sure to include their message in your
reply and save a copy for yourself if they have the nerve to complain to
your ISP! I know many people who have made multiple sales in this fashion.
What you have to remember is that spammers are people looking to make
money. If you have a product or opportunity that can help them do that
then you will get their attention and you will make sales.

[ Moderator Snip ]

[T]his issue is a lot like Politics; You have the zealots
who reside on opposite ends and the normal everyday common sense people
who live in the middle. Do yourself a favor George, get a second (or
third) email address and use that one for all your conversations with
friends and family. As far as SPAM goes, hit the delete button and do
something more productive with your time.

Until next time,
Conrad Dubois
mailto:cjd@141.com


[ Moderator $.02 ]

Conrad,

I like the idea of sending commercial offerings to those who spam me.
After all, they have opened a business relationship with me.  Might
as well see if I can sell them something.

Gary K. Foote, Moderator


              ***  NEW POST - Responding to Spam  ***


From: Cheryl Gilbert 
Subject: Responding to Spam

>
> You know, it would be a great idea of all the SPAMMERS got together and
> traded email addresses of all the people who complain about spamming so
> that if they are going to do it, at least they don't spam me or others who
> are complaining about it.

Well, except they shouldn't send it to *anybody* who doesn't explicitly
request it. Not just avoid people who complain.

Actually, I've been told that such a list exists. Or rather, seen mail
where they claim they have a list of "self-appointed cyber-cops" who
should be targeted because they've gotten people kicked off their ISPs.
They don't use it for the purpose you suggest, however. 

Has anyone checked out Aristotle? It seems like an interesting option.
It's a web-based email system similar to hotmail, but it's set up to
receive junk mail. The difference is that the businesses who mail to it
pay .25$ per mail that is read by the Aristotle customers & the customer
receives a check once their credit has exceeded 100$. Apparently they've
cut a deal with Cyberpromotions that says that they will permanently
take people off their mailing lists if they get an Aristotle account.
It's a chance for spammers to put their money where their mouth is. Not
a bad idea.

Not that I trust Cyberpromotions, by the way. I think they are serious
slime & not even vaguely reputable business-people.  Just had a new bad
go round with them. They joined an email mailing list under several
different names and just papered the list with spam. Really nasty stuff.
Sanford Wallace is now up their with Jeff Slaton as a person who's going
a long way towards ruining the potential of email as a marketing tool
for businesses who use legitimate opt-in marketing.




              ***  NEW POST - Marketing Techniques  ***


From: Michael Stokes 
Subject: succesfull web marketing

We as a relatively new company to the internet(not as a whole), have
been reading this digest and link exchanges digest regularly recently
while trying to find productive ways of marketing our products online.

Our site [ http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~mstokes ] , while still in it's
infancy, has been relatively popular and has generated sales beyond what
we expected.  We market and sell java applets for web designers/authors
and promoters and finding succesful ways to spread the word about our
products took time - there were no quick fixes.  We relied on gettinbg
the site completed, then we submitted it to a number of search
engines(some automatically and some manually) - we used meta tags in our
web pages, after that we submitted free demo versions of our products to
shareware sites on the net.  We have considered a targeted email
campaign through postmaster direct, but at this point have not decided
if we will procede with this.  We have never par taken in spam mailing
and beleive it is wrong or offensive to some people to do so.

It would be interesting to see how many people have received successfull
results from postmaster direct, I know of some success stories(that are
on there site).

Cheers,
Michael Stokes
mstokes@ihug.co.nz
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~mstokes - Interactive Applications -
producers of high quality web authoring and java tools.


              ***  NEW POST - Quid Pro Quo  ***


From: "Barry Shultz" 
Subject: Quid Pro Quo

> Quid Pro Quo? Oh, because she wrote 1 polite letter, she deserved to
> have Cyberpromotions overflow her mailbox with hundreds of spam
> letters?  I don't think so.
>
> You would give Cyberpromotions and companies like it complete
> control of the internet and the individual e-mail recipient no power
> at all.  Is that fair?

I do not condone mailbombs and I think anybody caught doing such
things should be dealt with severely. I was concerned about a person
complaining to the ISP for the first offense. That irritates me beyond
belief.

> Yeah, but... Do we have a right to cost someone money without
> their prior consent, knowledge or approval?

This has always been a tough one. As marketeers we certainly
do not want to pick someones pocket without delivering something
of value in return. However, it is rare to find a .com or .net
account that charges for emails and any responsible emailer
will restrict their bulk email campaigns to those domains. I can't see
restricting the entire process with government rules and regulations
because of those few nitwits who want to blindly blast out spam.

> And what about material of sexual content?  I personally don't
> want to receive that in my e-mail box.  Ours is a family
> address - my stepdaughter also uses it. Do I have any rights there?

Ditto.

Barry
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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                      ---------------------
                          The Corkboard
                      ---------------------




                      ---------------------
                          Miscellaneous
                      ---------------------



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