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The eMarketing Digest
© 1996 - 2008
Library of Congress
ISSN 1522-6913

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                     The E-Marketing Digest
                      Volume #2, Issue #24
                          June 5, 1997
                    Gary K. Foote, Moderator


Table of Contents

+ Moderator Comments

    "The persistence of spam"
    "Food for thought"
    "Single survey question"
    "Father of the Bride"

+ New Subjects

    "Exclusion Lists"
       - Russ Cobbe

+ Ongoing

    "Successful web marketing"
       - Julie Frost

    "Bulk e-mail solution"
       - Graeme Whittet
       - Dave Thuillier
       - Michael Smith

    "Responding to Spam"
       - Ryan Scott
       - Robert Smith
       - George Blake
       - Moderator reply
       - John McCabe


                       Moderator Comments

Subject: The persistence of spam

This list's preoccupation with spam, and all the ins and outs
thereof, is fast approaching epic proportions.  At this point many
moderators would say something like, "I will pass no more posts on
the subject of spam", but I don't believe in that heavy-handed style
of moderation.  So, I will continue to include the topic as it is
important to all of us, both neophytes and expert e-martketeers.

Having said all that, this list is supposed to be about how to
ethically market products and services using e-mail, so let's start
exchanging e-marketing strategies along with our 'spamfest'.  After
all, that's what we're all here for.

Subject: Food for thought

An autoresponder is mandatory if you intend to market exclusively
by e-mail.  Without it you are doomed to sending out your
literature manually, one piece at a time, as respondents to your
[AD] request further information.  An autoresponder, for those not
familiar with their use, allows you to place your literature at an
e-mail address.  When someone sends any e-mail to your autoresponder
address, two things happen;

1) The person who sent e-mail to, or 'triggered' your autoresponder
gets your literature back in their e-mail box.  This happens within
minutes at the most, seconds at the best.

2) You, the autoresponder 'owner', receive a confirmation that your
autoresponder was triggered.  This confirmation includes the sender's
e-mail address as well as any text they choose to include.  This
means that any .sig file that is set for 'automatic' will come to
you with your confirmation e-mails.  Personally, I keep these in a
separate folder called 'Autoresponder'.

Your autoresponder is a tireless workhorse, on the job 24 hours a
day, 7 days a week.  It's also a great timesaver, freeing you up
from, possibly, hours of manual e-mail handling for you.

Subject: Single survey question

In the spirit of focusing this list on the realities of e-marketing
I would like responses to the following single question.

"Does your internet marketing plan include other methods beyond
e-mail marketing (Like a website, banner ads, etc.) ?"

Subject: Father of the Bride

My daughter is getting married this Saturday afternoon and, as Father
of the Bride (A title I am proud to bear) my responsibilities between
now and then will keep me from having the time to edit this
publication each morning.  Since Sunday is our normal day of rest
(No digest published) it will be Monday when the next E-Marketing
Digest arrives in your mailbox.

Please continue to post to the list address and Monday, when my
sanity returns to a more normal state  I will publish a couple
of Digest Special Issues if necessary to catch up again.

Until then...

Gary K. Foote, Father of the Bride

                          New Subjects

From: Russ Cobbe 
Subject: Exclusion Lists

Some people wrote:

>> You know, it would be a great idea of all the SPAMMERS got together
>> and traded email addresses of all the people who complain about
>> spamming so that if they are going to do it, at least they don't
>> spam me or others who are complaining about it.
> Well, except they shouldn't send it to *anybody* who doesn't
> explicitly request it. Not just avoid people who complain.
> Actually, I've been told that such a list exists.

There are a couple of these type of places and seem to fall into two
categories.  One that will give you their entire remove list (kind of
dangerous since someone could spam that one, although that would be a
pretty stupid move by anyone) or the other option is a cleaning
service.  The problem with cleaning is that the cleaning service
gathers the largest email list around.  I have used the previous
approach and it dramatically reduced the flames I got back (even
though the list was very targetted).


Russ Cobbe
President, Inline Internet Systems, Inc.
7305 Rapistan Court     Mississauga, ON L5N 5Z4
P: (905) 813-8800       F: (905) 813-8286
Building Dynamic Database Driven Web Site


Subject: Re: Successful web marketing

Hello everyone,

Michael Stokes wrote:
>We as a relatively new company to the internet(not as a whole), have
>been reading this digest and link exchanges digest regularly recently
>while trying to find productive ways of marketing our products online.

If you are interested in using discussion lists as a way to get your
name out (through your helpful posts and sig files ) you may want
to join the HTML Writers Guild _Business List_. Talk about your
perfect target market - the people on the list, myself being one,
are all either professional web designers, soon to be professional
web designers, or people seriously interested in the business behind
their web site. Sounds like a good match with your "web designers,
authors and promoters". :-)

Good luck!
Julie Frost
Sage Web Creations              "Designed to get you more business."     Design, Marketing, & More for SOHOs
-- Sign up for our free Web Marketing newsletter at --
		-- --
== Special on Banners! See: ==

           ***  NEW POST - Bulk e-mail solution  ***

From: Graeme Whittet 
Subject: re: bulk-email solution

Re: Bulk Email Solution !
Here are the Sites many of you have asked for,
regarding REAL solutions to the bulk-email

1. C/NET Press Release:,4,10064,00.html

2. Agis Press Release:

3. "Tagging-Code" Proposal:

4. "Tagging-Code" Mailing List:
   Send email message to:
   with the message:      join spam-tag

5. "Internet E-Mail Marketing Council" (site not up yet,as of 4th Jun'97)

6. "IEMMC" Global Filtration System (site not up yet,
                                   as of 4th June'97)

The establishment of this "Internet E-Mail Marketing Council",
will be a very good 'first step' to resolving the bulk email
controversy, in that ANYONE who does not want to receive
unsolicited commercial email (UCE) will be able to simply
register that request at the above Global Filtration site.

Bulk-Email Marketers would be absolutely stupid not to
take advantage of this Filtration Service, which will
effectively remove all the "anti-spam flamers" from their
lists, prior to delivery. An Internet Survey just completed,
(I've misplaced the site I found this on,will try to find it),
found that only 30% will ask to be removed. Presumably,
that means 70% of netizens dont mind receiving UCE.

Personally, I will continue to receive it, as, I dont mind
deleting the rubbish, and I have scored some good deals from
bulk-email marketers, as they pass on the advertising savings,
in offering heavy discounts.

The ULTIMATE solution would include a "tagging-code" system,
as proposed at the above Site. This would give everyone the
ability to "narrow-down" the kinds of UCE we permit to receive,
eg. our areas of interest,hobbies,careers,freebies,etc.,
while rejecting the "noise" factor of untargeted UCE.

This would be the ultimate in "push" technology, where information
of interest to you, FINDS YOU, rather than YOU FINDING IT.
Maybe then most of us will begin to see the "benefits" of UCE,
rather than just the untargeted 'mess' of the present situation.

Graeme Whittet
PC Lifestyle Marketing.

           ***  NEW POST - Bulk e-mail solution  ***

From: D Thuillier 
Subject: Re: "Bulk Email Solution!"

Graeme Whittet wrote;

> The latest Web Poll found 70% of netizens didnt mind UCE,
> while a very vocal minority of 30% hate it with a vengeance.

Where and how was this poll taken? Are the results posted?
What else was in the poll.

Dave Thuillier
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++      dreamers_den
  Collectable Card Games                 Models & Hobby Materials
    Role Playing Games                       Unique Tee Shirts
             Fantasy & Sci-FI Books and Audio Books

           ***  NEW POST - Bulk e-mail solution  ***

From: (Michael Smith)
Subject: Responding with spam

>Dont encourage the "hysterical" ban-it-all minority.
>The latest Web Poll found 70% of netizens didnt mind UCE,
>while a very vocal minority of 30% hate it with a vengeance.

I think a lot of this depends on how much you get. I hesitate to open
my mouth because I know I can be flooded tomorrow, but I don't get
much UCE.

I rarely send a remove (only when someone sends me the same thing 5
or 6 times) and when I do, all the UCE dries up for some time. It
seems like instead of just removing me from the senders list, they
put me on a universal remove list.

I know I would be much more unhappy with UCE if I was getting 50
or more a day as some people are. I think that is the bottom line
with the 70%, they aren't getting much, so they don't mind much,
but they are still afraid of the possibility of getting literally
infinite amounts (well as much as several thousand computer
programs can feed into your box.) That possibility may well be a
contributing factor with the 30% who truly hate it too.

 Has anyone done a survey? Just how much UCE does the average
person receive a day.

Does anyone have any thoughts on why the difference in volume? Did
these people that are getting a ton of mail make a mistake and buy
something one time and that got them on a super list? Is it
possible that complaining and VERIFYING your address is what causes
it? Am I just super lucky and should keep my mouth very tightly shut?


 Michael D. Smith
 Tariff Management Consultants, Inc.

 Quality -- Integrity -- Service
 AND The Best Overall Prices You'll Find Anywhere

           ***  NEW POST - Responding to Spam  ***

From: "Ryan Scott" 
Subject: Responding to Spam

> From: "Michael W. Kelley" 
> Subject: Responding to Spam
> When I am Spammed I send an email to the person, the ISP, every
> computer server the spam was routed though, the business that owns the
> copywright of what they are selling, the spam program maker if I know
> it, the company that they are using for an autoresponder, and every
> email address within the spam, and to SPAM-L.

One thing knee-jerk reactionists flamers don't realize is the amount of
work they are creating for the ISP...  Believe me, the ISP already
knows about the spam, because hundreds of other flamers have sent him
mail about it.  The only difference is that the ISP feels obligated to
*respond to all of them* otherwise, HIS reputation is damaged.  If he
doesn't respond, clearly he is providing a haven for spammers, goes the

No reputable ISP *wants* tons of spam running through his system, and
they are all working on solutions.  They are far more aware what's
going through their system than you are.  As someone who was victimized
by one of CyberPromos customers, and someone whose server shows up as a
place they can send their spam through, I've had to deal with
literally hundreds of pieces of mail from people who thought WE were
responsible for it.

We worked continually to plug up the possibility that someone would use
our server as a relay.  But we are lucky: we're not an ISP, so we never
act as a relay.   The only machines that are allowed to connect via
SMTP and send mail to a remote destination are the ones in our LAN.  No
ISP has it that easy, that's why spam continues to flow.

Give the postmasters a break.  Guaranteed, you are NOT the first person
to write to him.  Complaining to him, making him respond to your
mail, does NOT help him combat spam.
      Ryan Scott - - 718 522 1531
          - Reinventing Direct Marketing on the Net -
       NetCreations, Inc -
                - Targeted 100% OPT IN Email -
PostMaster Direct Response -
             *be sure to quote me in your reply*

           ***  NEW POST - Responding to Spam

From: Robert Smith 
Subject: On Spam


There WAS a certain person I will not mention by name that has
written a "famous" book on Internet marketing.  This fellow was
sending me several messages  (the same message) every day.  There was
no way to get off his list.

I tried asking to be removed, Asking his ISP to ask him to stop. I
visited his web site advertising a internet access MLM that I had
already investigated and decided against joining.  I looked for his
email address and it was nowhere to be found.

The only thing you could do at his web site was sign up for the MLM.

Now this was getting me mad because I had deleted over 30 of the same
SPAM messages, I know many of you have also received these same
messages and can relate.

I called him at his 800 number to ask to get off his list to no

Eventually found a way to get in contact with his ISP abuse webmaster
directly and the account has been shut down.  Apparently several
others were bothered enough to trace his real ISP and contact them
directly also.

So how does SPAM pay he lost his ISP has to move his web site and
re-promote it.

I know - I shouldn't spend so much time on this issue  but because of
my high visibility on the Internet some days receive so much SPAM a
day and my ISP's mailbox for me is full so I don't get some valuable
business messages because of the amount of SPAM already in my

I will not design a web site without a email contact link on every
page, Nor will I buy from anyone who can't be contacted, I'm sure
others feel the same.


    _\|/_   A Seed Gives Birth to Fruit of it's Own Kind
    (O O)
Robert Smith   Smith's Family Enterprises Inc.
 *  2606 Summer Lane Eugene OR 97404  *
Mailto: (541) 689-1847

           ***  NEW POST - Responding to Spam

From: George Blake 
Subject: Responding to Spam

>You must have an enormous amount of time on your hands to go to
>that length!

No, I use an automatic program to respond to SPAMMERS called

> can
>complain all day long and NOTHING WILL HAPPEN!

Most can be found. After all they want potential customers to
find them. If they can't how can the potential customer respond?

[ Moderator snip ]

Do most people on this list send (I'll use the polite term) UCE?

George Blake, Ph.D.  
American Association of Psychiatric Technicians, Inc.
Certifying Mental Health Workers Nationwide
For information go to

For mental health worker discussion send message to

[ Moderator reply ]


Just how automatic is SPAM HATERS, and how customizable is it?
Automatic programs like these can be useful, but, if set with too
little tolerance you could be responding to non-spam without even
knowing it.  The possibilities for damaging the online image and
ISP relationship of someone who has sent you legitimate e-mail
seem pretty good.

As far as sending out UCE, yes, I suspect many on this list do so.
The E-Marketing Digest advocates ethical techniques that preclude
mass mailings of UCE.  Single posts to carefully targeted
individuals or campanies, though qualified as UCE, are not Spam.
Or, as Sunni Freyer put it in an earlier issue, "All Spam is
Unsolicited Commercial E-mail, but not all Unsolicited Commercial
E-mail is Spam."

Gary K. Foote, Moderator

           ***  NEW POST - Responding to Spam  ***

From: John McCabe 
Subject: Responding to spammers

>I like the idea of sending commercial offerings to those who spam me.
>After all, they have opened a business relationship with me.  Might
>as well see if I can sell them something.

Gary, you're absolutely right. I offer about a dozen
autoresponders for various offers I've made. Here's the most
common pattern:

Day 1 - Get a request at the main address ,
sending out a list of documents available.

Day 2 - Get the same silly message sent to each autoresponder,
including the first one.

Day 3 -> ? - Get same ridiculous form letter at my personal
address until they figure out I'm not going to answer them.

Day ?+1 - One last round of the form letter sent to all 14

What they've succeeded in doing is getting all of my marketing
materials 2 or 3 times. I haven't made any sales yet, but it will
happen someday. When it does, my restraint in not blasting them
will be rewarded.

John McCabe ------------------------>
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