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The eMarketing Digest
© 1996 - 2008
Library of Congress
ISSN 1522-6913

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                     The E-Marketing Digest
                      Volume #2, Issue #59
                     Copyright, Webbers.com
                          Aug 10, 1997
                     ----------------------
                    Gary K. Foote, Moderator

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Table of Contents

+ New Subjects

    "Customer list-or spam?"
       - Janet Steelman

   "Reaching the Masses"
       - Robert Smith

    "Anti-marketing Marketers??"
       - Paul Myers
       - Moderator's comment

+ Ongoing

    "Opt-in"
       - Cynthia (Sunni) Freyer

    "MCJ keyword spamming"
       - Michael W. Kelley

---------------------------------------------------------------------

                      --------------------
                          New Subjects
                      --------------------


From: steelman 
Subject: Customer list-or spam?

I am carrying on a campaign to direct people to my site by taking out
ads in various e-zines. The ads have no URL, only an e-mail address, so
that I can not only send a bit longer sales letter (including the URL),
but also to capture the e-mail addresses of those who respond. Since
these responders are able to order directly from the site, I do not have
the abiltity to get their address when they order.(The site owners
simply send me a commission on the sales that I generate.)  Thus, I have
the address of someone who responded to an ad, but I do not know if they
are a true "customer".

My question is this:  If I were to send out other sales letters to these
people at a later date, offering a similar product, would that be "using
my own customer list" or would that be "unsolicited spam"?

Thanks for your input.

Janet Steelman


             ***  NEW POST -  Reaching the Masses  ***


From: Robert Smith 
Subject: How to reach the masses

I just had to add my <002>  I see a lot of people who want so much to
reach the masses they are almost ready to do anything to get to them.
This is the problem not the solution.

We shouldn't be trying to reach the masses, that's TV.  On the
Internet you want to reach every single person in the world that is
interested in just exactly what you want to tell or sell.  It's all
about nitch  & target marketing.  To sell you tell interesting
stories, and share information with those people you CAN target best,
because of who you are and what you do that's most unique.

Develop your house mailing list by giving not by pushing your thing
on people. Start sharing the useful news and information you have
access to because of your interests. Do what you love and the money
will follow. Take the time to develop relationships where everyone
gains something.  I like to call it a mastermind alliance.  It;
searching for the synergy where 2 + 2 =5 or 6 not 4.

When we market on the Internet we do exactly the opposite of what the
mass media does. We don't want to bring more of that blast to
numbness.  We draw interest to what we love, we pull them in with the
most targeted keywords, free reports, information and even good
deals.

If you want more customers or subscribers to your mail list on the
Internet you have to prime the pump.  You have to give before you
get. Invest yourself in your Internet home business.

There is a movement to change the internet into something more like
TV, but I don't think it will happen.  If you don't like the static
you need to shore up the signal.  If the signal is strong enough you
won't notice the static as much. It's not SPAM if they want to here
your message.

Bob
--
A Seed Gives Birth to Fruit of it's Own Kind

The Internet Marketer's Resource Site
http://www.arrowweb.com/graphics/design/
-----------------------------------------
Robert Smith  Web Site Design & Promotion
 *  2606 Summer Lane Eugene OR 97404  *
Mailto: sfeinc@continet.com (541) 689-1847

Subscribe to the Internet Marketing Newsletter:
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             ***  NEW POST -  Anti-marketing Marketers??  ***


From: "Paul Myers" 
Subject: Anti-marketing Marketers??

Warning: This is an editorial rant. Proceed at your own risk.


John Audette recently mentioned the idea of sending one email
per week to the subscribers of I-Sales Digest, giving more
detailed info on the weeks sponsor. While the response was
favorable by a factor of 10:1, some people opposed it. John,
in his usual even-handed fashion, posted one of the negative
responses.

I was astonished that this idea was called spamming!

The post below was written with the intent of sending it in to
John, as my response to the negative votes. I think this
entire little incident should be considered very carefully
by anyone that intends to do business online.

----
To: newpost@mmgco.com
Re: Anti-Marketing Marketers

I am amazed at the negative reaction on the part of some people
to John's announcement that he would be sending a detailed
sponsor ad to subscribers once a week. I was more amazed that
someone would label it spam, or any other form of Net.Abuse.

These terms have very precise definitions. As online marketers,
we should probably become familiar with them. While the word
spam is bandied about as the universal catch-all for ads that
the recipient finds objectionable, that is not what it really is.

         [Putting on the Moderators Hat]

Spam is a term which applies to excessively crossposted or
multiply posted articles of essentially identical nature in
Usenet. Since Usenet does not allow content based decisions,
except to ensure that posts are at least loosely related to
the topic of the group, an objective standard was needed to
decide what constituted a spam. Seth Breidbart came up with a
very simple formula for this. If the sum of the square roots
of "n" equals or exceeds exceeds 20, the post is spam, and is
canceled. With "n" being the number of groups each copy was
posted to.

Nothing to do with content. Period. The fact that most of it is
commercial is irrelevant. (The fact that the number of them
cancelled last month exceeded 7 figures *is* relevant.)

Next is the infamous "off topic posting". Also usually commercial,
and those are given the worst treatment because if you don't
squash them, they proliferate and destroy the usability of the
forum, while contributing nothing. This occurs in open discussion
lists as well as newsgroups.

         [Mod Hat back on rack]

Then there's Unsolicited Commercial/Bulk Email. (UCE/UBE) We all
know what this is. It clogs up our mailboxes and costs a lot of
money to download in parts of the world that have metered
access charges or measured phone service.

And to anyone who has ever written for pay, most of it is just
plain offensive!

So, how does John's plan fit into this? Well, it's certainly not
spam. Unless there's an I-Sales newsgroup. ILE, yes; I-Sales, no.
(Not a bad idea though.)

Will the ads be off-topic? Very unlikely. Same people that sponsor
I-Sales now, and they seem to be pretty relevant to me. Seem like
just the sort of thing most of us would WANT to hear about.

Unsolicited? Hardly. Anyone who knows in advance can accept the ads
or unsubscribe. Before they get one. End of problem.

I was around I-Sales for Issue One. I was also on Internet Marketing
when Glenn Fleishmann ran it, and I remember that he got the same
grief for simply accepting sponsorships. I recall Sanford Wallace
equating his form of proposed (at that time) mass emailings with
sponsorships. (That brilliant bit of "logic" on Wallace's part
eluded me too...)

My first thought when I read John's proposed idea was "Great!
They're testing a new income model!" As a listowner and newsletter
publisher, I welcome that wholeheartedly. Advertisers and potential
advertisers, which should cover anyone reading this, should also
welcome it. Instead, about 1 in 10 is trying to crucify him for it!

To the people who oppose this idea, I suggest the following:


                           Wake up.


Stuff this good doesn't get put together without serious time,
effort and skill. People who can do this on a daily basis for 500
issues (Congrats, John!) can do other things with the time that
would pay real money, instead of getting abuse from people who
claim to be interested in business, but only if they don't have
to see it.
----

As I was finishing this post, I got the I-Sales Digest Special
Message in which John said that he was getting a lot of email on
the subject, mostly positive. He also said that the negatives were
getting vicious. The vicious minority got their way, and the Devil
take them all. John is not to be blamed, as there is only so much
time in a day, and you can't waste it dealing with idiots.

My response would have been to quietly and permanently black-hole
every nasty complainer. Remove them from the list and put them in
the kill-file. I would probably have resisted the urge to hide
their email addresses in the source code for a web page, where REAL
spammers would be the only ones to find them. Probably.

This was a great idea John proposed, and it was killed by the
people who had the most to gain. I am as violently anti-spam as
anyone I know, but there are forms of advertising, even through
email, that ARE appropriate.

How can *alleged* businesspeople oppose a clearly ethical and
considerate innovation in advertising? And abuse the moderator
of a freely provided forum which is, in the final analysis,
PRIVATELY OWNED!

The business crowd online complains about the "free lunch" crowd.
And then this ... I wonder if these same people sell "kneecap
insurance"?

Unbelievable.

Paul
--
Editor, VirtualBusiness.News - Weekly Newsletter for Small Business
To subscribe, mailto:vbnews@just-business.com


              ***  [Moderator's comment]  ***

Paul,

I too was astonished that this model was opposed so strongly,
and the fact that the nay-sayers were a one-in-ten minority
who managed to get their way through intimidation is a little
scary.

Personally I think John's idea was sound.  It's just too bad
the baby got thrown out before the bathwater was even run into
the tub.

Gary K. Foote

                      ---------------------
                             Ongoing
                      ---------------------


From: "Cynthia (Sunni) Freyer" 
Subject: Re: Opt-In

> Tim Smith  wrote:
>
 I'd like to hear your
> thoughts on one-to-one marketing, particularly on the
> concept of opt-in advertising.
> Any experience on the category of users
> most likely to opt in (to PowerAgent)?

Interesting focus for discussion, Tim.  Like Gary, I visited
PowerAgent today, but unlike Gary didn't stick around to
fill out any forms.  Personally,  you would have to cast a
hypnotic spell upon me before I would ever be inclined
to "sign up" for advertising messages.  In this day-and-age
of message after message being beamed at me in every
conceivable fashion (except for slicks slipped under my
office door -- and don't anybody get any ideas!), my
brain has evolved a massive filter to block appeals.
Perhaps I have evolved into some unique type of human
being.  But I doubt it.  I suspect there are many, many
others like me, lurking out there.

So where does that leave one?  Who, thus, are the
persons that would sign up  (ahem.. people like Gary?
smile Gary!)  An early adopter, yes.  But even more
fascinating to me is that the characteristics of such a
person are such that they were MOTIVATED to go
to such a site and actually spend the kind of time
Gary did (4 pages is a lot!) to sign up to receive
alleged targeted ce.

Very interesting.  Is this, thus, an early adopter with
a shopping compulsion?  Based on definitions of
early adopter, the two seem contradictory..  Is it
simply curiosity... a hunger for something new...
a let's see what happens/what I'll get when I do
this .. mentality?

I would want to know much more before I enlisted
this system for use.  To date, on the web, I have
seen over and over and over again evidence of
Naisbitt's words "high tech/high touch" in the now
dated MegaTrends.  I sell via "high tech"  when I
create relationships (high touch.)   Thus, I remain
open to seeing if PowerAgent and the like will
be the click that causes the gold to fly, but
I remain dubious.

Others thoughts??

Cynthia (Sunni) Freyer
email: cfna@pullman.com
--------------------------------------------------------
	             CFNA, Inc.: PR/Marketing
	115 State St. Ste. 213, Pullman, WA 99163
Voice: 509-332-3956		Fax: 509-334-2525


             ***  NEW POST -  MCJ keyword spamming  ***


From: "Michael W. Kelley" 
Subject: Re: V2, #56, MCJ keyword spamming

> I just wanted to let you know that due to the controversy
> generated by my original posting of MCJ's Electronic Flea Market
> (http://www.mcjdeals.com) as a new site on the web, my client,
> MCJ Ventures, has dropped the objectionable programming from
> the site.  The keyword spamming is no more.

I went back to the site after this posting, and the keyword
spamming is gone, and meta tags are being used. That's good
stuff. The site is interesting, and I have now included it
as one of my links from my personal page referrals.

I find it hard to beleive that just my posting about keyword
spamming generated strong responses, but I will reaffirm that
the, for me, using ks is objectionable. Too many of us are
trying to work with the system as it is meant to be used, not
by cutting corners.

Thanks for the opportunity to opine, and, Claudia, keep up the
excellent work!


--
http://users.aol.com/MichaelWK/user.htm
Pagers & Services - Internet Services - FREE Prepay phonecards
Wireless Security Systems w/alarm - Northern Lights Online Personals
Recycle/Reuse Ribbons/Cartridges - Great Internet Pirates Hunt

A Public Service - Stacey Lynn Balas,
mysterious disappearance 11/26/96
http://www.cleve-oh.com/greeting/stacey.html


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