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The eMarketing Digest
© 1996 - 2008
Library of Congress
ISSN 1522-6913

Published by
Webbers Communications
686 Keene Rd. Suite B
Winchester, NH 03470
603-392-0090

 The E-Marketing Digest
 Volume #2,Issue #160
 April 13, 1998
 ------------------------
 Gary K. Foote, Moderator

 The E-Marketing Digest is published by Webbers Communications
 N. Conway, NH 03860    http://www.webbers.com   (603)447-1024

 The latest issue of The EMD is always available by autoresponder
 mailto:gkfoote@webbers.com?Subject=emdlatst.txt
                                                           
 ----------------------------------------------------------------

 Subscribe to our sister publication, The E-Tailer's Digest
 Discussing both online and offline retailing methods.
 Web: http://www.gapent.com/etailer/

 ----------------------------------------------------------------

 Table of Contents

 + Ongoing

    "Newsgroup Marketing"
       - Lenny Laskowski
       - John Gerits
       - Moderator's Comments
       - Krishnan J Iyer
       - Moderator's Comments
       - Paul Myers

    "Affiliate Programs"
       - George Matyjewicz
       - Moderator's Comments

    "Charging for Information Online"
       - Cynthia (Sunni) freyer
       - Moderator's Comments

 + Website Issues

    "Include Tag"
       - George Matyjewicz
       - Michael Hammons

 + In The News

    "Singapore Moves Towards E-commerce Law"

 + The Corkboard

    "InterNIC Archive Location"
       - Bj Kennedy
       - Moderator's Comments
       - Moderator's Response

    "Going Up?"
       - Phil Doyle
       - Moderator's Comments

 + Question of the Week

    "Last Week's QOTW Responses"
       - Dee Power
       - Steve Mabel

    "This Week's QOTW - Do You Currently Market in Newsgroups?"
       - Gary K. Foote

 ----------------------------------------------------------------


 --------------------
 Moderator's Comments
 --------------------


Hi All,

First, I would like to thank everyone who participated in the EMD
Graphics contest, both the designers who went way beyond the call
of duty creating their entries, and the voters who made a clear
choice of their preferences.

There were 10 entries in the contest.  There were 21 voters with
6 of the entries receiving votes from this group.  The majority
of the votes went to two entries in particular...  in fact there
is a tie between the two most-favored buttons.  What to do...?

I thought about holding a second vote to break the tie between
the two, but then realized the perfection of the outcome and have
decided that instead of there being only one winner there are two
winners of this contest.  

They are, in order of their respective dates of entry:

     Button #6
     Designed by Claire Schaeffer 
     2K non-animated .gif
     mailto:schaefferc@provenedge.com
     http://www.provenedge.com/


     Button #7
     Designed by Dean Walker 
     2K non-animated .gif
     mailto:income@fwdcorp.com
     http://fwdcorp.com/index.html

To these two designers I give a hearty...

C O N G R A T U L A T I O N S !!

These two winning graphics are now installed at The E-Marketing
Digest website where all you subscribers may download the graphic
of yourr choice - animated or not -  and the HTML necessary to
install it on your website.  The specific URL is;

http://www.webbers.com/emark/buttons.html

Alternatively you may retrieve a text file containing links to
the two winning graphics and the necessary inatallation HTML from
the following autoresponder;
mailto:gkfoote@webbers.com?Subject=buttons.txt

Congratulations to our winners.  An informative winner's e-mail
will arrive in your mailbox(s) later today with details on your
winnings.

On another note, I recently posted about cutting overly long .sig
files in this publication.  Today marks the day that I actually
begin slashing all .sig files to 6 lines maximum.  Unfortunately
that means that some of the posts here - and in future issues -
will not carry full contact info for their authors as it was
included after the 6 line limit.  To those authors I apologise
for the lack of exposure this creates for you today, but I also
believe that if you tighted up your .sig files to 6 lines or less
you will find it brings you greater response.  Short is better
with .sig files.


         ------ FREE STUFF FOR INTERNET MARKETERS ------
GKF      mailto:gkfoote@webbers.com?Subject=webbers.info
         -----------------------------------------------



 ----------
 New Topics
 ----------



 -------
 Ongoing
 -------


***  FIRST TOPIC - Newsgroup Marketing  ***


From: Lenny Laskowski 
Subject: Use of Newsgroups

Gary,

I still use newsgroups with pretty good responses.  Because my
posting is probably one of the few that actually have anything to
do with the newsgroup, my posting stands out.  I have had over
5000 responses at one time to newsgroup postings for my FREE
Speaking Tips E-zine.

Lenny Laskowski

----  PRESENTATION SKILL SEMINARS, WORKSHOPS & KEYNOTES  ----
Lenny Laskowski, DTM  
President & International Professional Speaker   
LJL Seminars (tm) - 106 Schoolhouse Road
Newington, CT. 06111-4002                         
FREE--SPEAKING--TIPS  http://www.ljlseminars.com/monthtip.htm


***  SAME TOPIC - NEXT POST  ***


From: John Gerits 
Subject: Re: Is Anyone Marketing in Newsgroups Anymore?

Gary K. Foote writes:
> It seems like Usenet is not mentioned in many online marketing
> mixes these days.  I know the .biz groups are full of get rich
> quick ads and are pretty useless,

I'll weigh in here as the moderator of 2 newsgroups (NGs).

I don't recall ever reading on any discussion list something
positive about NGs. Everyone seems to think ALL of Usenet is one
big spam bed. But many people do not realize that there are
moderated NGs with no noise (spam) as well as non-moderated NGs
with hardly any spam.

> but what about becoming a part of a 
> newsgroup that contains your
> market, offering your participation
> with an informative .sig
> pointing to your website/autoresponder/ICQ/what-have-you?

Not only does it reach one's market at the moment, but low volume
NGs generally have a longer expiration time on news servers, thus
new readers will still get a chance to see one's message(s).
Also, if someone were to search with dejanews or altavista,
et.al. and any of your past messages contain the keyword(s) used
in the search, your messages will pop up, not just for a certain
current period but also with engines having older archives.

The major downside of posting to NGs is that of using your real
email address. It will get picked up by spammers; their email
harvesting programs. So the question is one of trade off. Do you
reach an additional 5,000 - 10,0000 and more of your market and
open yourself up to receiving spam or not?

Participating in a NG "community", builds the same credibility as
participating here in the E-Marketing Digest "community".

Choose not to participate? Lurk and learn. A lot of people don't
worry about spam and offer to help as well as just discuss. And,
if someone posts on the NGs and you can help or have the
product/service, no better time than to contact them with a
personal email reply.

And if you don't want to use your real email or place a spam
block in it, as far as my NGs go, there is no concern, it gets
posted -injected.

> Does anyone here still use this method

Plenty of people use this method, perhaps not many from this list
and others.

My one NG; general (on and offline) marketing has been up almost
2 years and has passed 8,500 posts, no spam, around 3,000
different posters. A great number of regulars since the beginning
and new participants, not one time posters, each day. There is no
way of knowing how large the readership is worldwide, unless I
get them to flush their toilet at a specific time and calculate
it using the water utility companies of the world, but I average
about 25 injections (50 submissions) per day into the marketing
NG. Compare that to postings in a daily digest, the readership
could be anywhere from 5,000 to 20,000

> or is yesterday gone forever?

Perhaps it is not that yesterday is gone, but rather not many are
aware that non-spam or minimal spam NGs, where one's target
market can be reached, exist. Not to forget, being an additional
resource for learning.

I invite you all to monitor misc.business.marketing.moderated and
participate if you wish. IMHO, it's a great additional resource
and made "Best of the Net", PC World, August 1997.

Also, monitor misc.entrepreneurs.moderated  This NG was abandoned
and I have recently taken it over. Traffic is light as many have
not found their way back. It was once a "hot" NG and I hope to
make it that again.

You can find the charter & posting guidelines, and FAQ at
http://www.nijenrode.nl/mbmm  And while you are there, take a
look at the site, especially the marketing resources section. I
have nothing to sell at the site, purely an added value for the
readers of the marketing NG.

Gary, I recall you also want to increase the subscription base of
E-Marketing Digest...Send a "promo" to
misc.business.marketing.moderated I'll be more than happy to
inject it.

John Gerits

G e r i t s - K n e e f e l  &  A s s o c i a t e s
    Strategic Management & Marketing Consulting
    Will you be around tomorrow?
    mailto:gerits@dakine.demon.nl  ICQ#: 7900814
Moderator: news:misc.business.marketing.moderated
           news:misc.entrepreneurs.moderated


[Moderator's Coments]

Hi John,

Thanks for giving us input from the perspective of one who is
deeply involved in newsgroups today.  I have to admit that I am
one of those who have not participated in Usenet for some time.
I plan to change that by reading the two you referenced and, once
familiar with the ways of those NGs, post the 'promo' you offered
to inject.  I'm also going to take a look at other NGs and
probably, as a result, reevaluate my marketing mix.

I wonder if there are any *unmoderated* NGs that offer like
value.  Anyone?

Your Moderator,

Gary K. Foote


***  SAME TOPIC - NEXT POST  ***


From: Krishnan J Iyer 
Subject: Re: Is Anyone Marketing in Newsgroups Anymore?

Gary wrote....

>>I know the .biz groups are full of get rich
>>quick ads and are pretty useless, but 
>>what about becoming a part
>>of a newsgroup that contains your market, offering your
>>participation with an informative .sig pointing to your
>>website/autoresponder/ICQ/what-have-you?  
>>Does anyone here still
>>use this method or is yesterday gone forever?

I believe it's fading away by the day. You are right in observing
that most biz groups are cluttered by the unwanted "get rich"
"mlm" stuff and secondly, the newsgroups cannot remain as
proactive as the email lists used to be. That does not signal the
end of the era for the usenet. 

Reference.com is trying it's best to bring back some of 
usenet's lost glory by stopping unwanted and routine
mails. So does deja news. There is much more service 
still left over with usenet.

But personally, I prefer to use what is on my desk rather 
than go out to search on the netocean for two hours daily,
searching on different groups, subject headings and locating 
the information. But that has really become tough despite
the tools, subscription etc. Most of the times, you end up
searching the subject headers that are so very well disguised
and irritating, the least to say.

My wild dream would be to start a mailing list on each of 
the usenet hierarchy group which will help the users to 
bring in a proactive participation, making them very useful 
tools for business. 

Looking forward to the views of others.

Regards

Krishnan J iyer
bcmfax.net
Redefining Global fax Communications
krish@bcmfax.net
http://www.bcmfax.net


[Moderator's Comments]


Hi Krishnan,

I'm not quite clear on what you suggest.  Do you mean that each
list would mirror the posts in the NG?

Your Moderator,

Gary K. Foote


***  SAME TOPIC - NEXT POST  ***


From: paul@talkbiz.com
Subject: Marketing in newsgroups

Gary,

> ... what about becoming a part of 
> a newsgroup that contains your
> market, offering your participation 
> with an informative .sig pointing
> to your website/autoresponder/ICQ/what-have-you? 

There are still quite a few people doing this, but it's a very
different beast than marketing on lists. One reason is the spam
problem. While spammers grab addresses from lists as well, there
is more control for the read-only folks with lists.

Moderated newsgroups provide forums that a lot of people still
use, but it takes more awareness of the stricter forms of
netiquette to use them successfully. The best way to do this is
to make sure you only join in because of an interest in
discussing the subject matter, at the very least until you get
the feel for the way the groups work.

I know several people who do very well with the referrals and
direct inquiries that they generate from newsgroup participation.
Yes, there are folks who use them as an effective way to generate
business. They tend to be very knowledgeable in their fields.
(Usenet is very harsh on those who fake experience.)

The difference between the thinking of those who frequent lists
as opposed to newsgroups may be why you don't hear a lot about
Usenet. It's a much more "rough and tumble" environment than
lists. Surprisingly, you often find groups, as in
misc.business.marketing.moderated, with *very* high levels of
professional experience and knowledge. The way the groups are
distributed is partly responsible for that, I think.

Generating business through newsgroup participation takes a
different mindset, lots of patience, and thicker skin. The
rewards are there for folks who are willing to do the work.

Paul Myers

TalkBiz News - http://www.talkbiz.com/news
Win 500 free postcards with your website on them.
http://www.printing.com/promo.asp?site=talk
                             

***  NEXT TOPIC - Affiliate Programs  ***


From: Rainmaker 
Subject: Re: Affiliate Programs

>[Moderator's Comments]
>
>Thanks for the real numbers, Allan.  
>Even though these are making
>money, none sound like a real living.  Does anyone know of a
>small business with just one or two people working the keyboards
>and making a full living by their affiliate efforts?

As I asked, "Is anybody making any money with affiliates
programs?"  

Affiliates programs sound a lot like MLM's.  Everybody gets hyped
and sells down levels, but nobody makes money.  IMHO, if I can't
$5,000 a month, it's not worth it.  Unless, of course there is no
work on our part.   I would rather concentrate on promoting our
business than the upline.

There's not much difference between affiliates and banner
exchanges or link exchanges or Web rings.

George
  
George Matyjewicz            "Rainmaker Extraordinaire"
Managing Partner             http://www.gapent.com/
GAP Enterprises, Ltd.        mailto:georgem@gapent.com
Tel: (201) 939-8533 Ext 821  Fax: (201) 460-3740
Automated Press Releases: http://www.gapent.com/pr/
350 Seminars & Trade shows: http://www.gapent.com/seminars/


[Moderator's Comments]

Hi George,

You know, I agree with your MLM analogy, though few have spoken
the similarities out loud - perhaps for fear of 'jinxing'
affiliate programs in their infancy.  An affiliate program could
be easily extented to MLM format - *if* the product/service is
fairly universally desirable.

The big differences I see between affiliate programs and
banners/webrings are;

1) The amount of effort that goes into tracking - most webrings
don't do much of this, if any at all.

2) The increased revenue stream payoff to the participants -
usually better than that offered by those banner programs that
pay per click-thru.

Banner programs and webrings are, IMHO, more of a non-serious'
attempt at generating traffic.  Sure, you may get some increased
numbers, but how well are these people targeted?  I suspect not
as well as most affiliate programs.

Re: Making a complete living from affiliate programs?  I still
think it can be done with just a couple of people at the
keyboards and a well designed affiliate program.

Your Moderator,

Gary K. Foote


***  NEXT TOPIC - Charging for Online Information  ***


From: "Cynthia (Sunni) Freyer" 
Subject: Re: Charging for Online Information

George M. wrote:

>Yes.  Netizens believe everything should be free.  But that is
>changing.  The trend now is to charge for services, and soon you
>will see free lists going by the wayside. 

Then Bob Rankin replied :

>A more encouraging trend is subscription-based services which
>piggyback on a free one.  Last December, we launched
> TOURBUS PLUS - a $10/year subscription
>for people who like TOURBUS and want more.  
>Randy Cassingham does
>something similar with his "This Is True" mailing list, offering
>free and premium subscriptions.

And Sunni Freyer now says:

I concur with both Bob and George.  There's really nothing that
is free -- for long.  Somewhere along the line someone is paying.
And absent that, death of the pub will have to occur unless one,
of course, can afford an expensive "hobby."  I'm open to debate
on the subject, but I'm beginning to form the belief that it is
the audience that is going to determine the funding mechanism.
The free and premium models I've seen on the net -- and certainly
I haven't seen them all -- have been targetted at a business
audience.  

In our case, we have an ezine targetted at dog owners. Consumers.
Not making any money themselves off the furries.  They are very,
very clear.  No they won't pay even though they score the e-mail
pub A+++.   They do want advertising, however, and preferably
advertising that is coupon- or special-offer based.  This is our
second survey.  In both instances, the results have been the
same.  Do others have this experience?  Or is it just this
audience?

Sunni Freyer
CFNA,Inc.: PR/Marketing
cfna@pullman.com


[Moderator's Comments]


Hi Sunni,

I had a client who has me place a 'free dessert' coupon on his
restaurant website.  He got zero returns.  We figured it was
because of the process necessary to redeem a virtual coupon.

1)  Print the page
2)  Bring it with you to the place of business
3)  Remember to present it

#1 Takes the knowledge of how to print a page.  You would be
surprised how many people online still do not have this
knowledge.

#2 Takes a good memory.  How many times have you gone to the
store without your shopping list, or forgotten to feed the fish,
or some other simple thing?  Memory is a very passing thing. 

#3 Again the memory connection.  There is also the 'embarassment
factor' to consider.  Its one thing to bring the coupon with you
(if you remember) and quite another to actually present it
publicly where all can hear that you are going out of your way to
save a couple of dollars.  Not everyone feels this way, but there
are many who do.

Anyway...  what kind of return have your advertisers seen from
their coupon campaigns - if you don't mind sharing the info
publicly?  I'm interested.  I'm sure others are.

Your Moderator,

Gary K. Foote


 --------------
 Website Issues
 --------------


***  FIRST TOPIC  Include Tag  ***


From: Rainmaker 
Subject: Re: Include Tag  ***

>[Moderator's Note]
>
>As I understand it the tag calls up a full HTML file (not simply
>an image) and pastes it at the top of the document called up by
>the browser.  The same goes for a page footer.

[snip]

> Roy Hinkelman wrote in part...
>
>IF there is a software solution that would allow the writer to
>control online publishing rights, the cost of the content could
>go down thru syndication of content, and publishers could make
>money thru the advertising model, without having to charge for
>subscriptions.
>
>This is how I can spend 20+ hours a week 
>writing reviews and only
>charge for a fraction of my time to each client.

A couple of points:

1.  The include I use does bring in html code, not merely images.
It works very well if your server has Front Pages Extensions on
it, even if you don't write in FP.  We create a banner page, and
a navigation page which is called into everything else.  When a
change is needed, it goes to two pages, rather than every page in
your site.

As an example, look at E-Tailer's Digest at;

http://www.gapent.com/etailer/  

We needed to add "In The News" to the site, and changed it to
add the includes.  Now, whenever we need to make a change to
header or navigation or footer, we do it once.

2.  The advertising that Roy is discussing is a great idea.  I
know of one site doing just that.  Russ Kelly, who is a member of
E-Tailer's Digest (and an old friend and partner in a few
businesses) has a traveller's site that shows B&B type places in
Mexico, Italy and soon-to-be the Pacific islands.  They create
context that is shared by all member sites, i.e., if you write a
travel article, it may appear in Italy or Mexico at a small B&B
who looks like they are the Hilton.  

http://www.worldlinks.com

George

George Matyjewicz            "Rainmaker Extraordinaire"
Managing Partner             http://www.gapent.com/
GAP Enterprises, Ltd.        mailto:georgem@gapent.com
Tel: (201) 939-8533 Ext 821  Fax: (201) 460-3740
Automated Press Releases: http://www.gapent.com/pr/
350 Seminars & Trade shows: http://www.gapent.com/seminars/


***  SAME TOPIC - NEXT POST  ***


From: "Michael Hammons" 
Subject: Re: content/include.tag and tracking


"> Can this be used to send a text file to another web site?

> Interesting idea.  I'm interested in the answer.  Does
> anybody here know?"

Yes, basically any type of file (image, text, html, etc.)
can be included. The website that wants the "data" inserted
must be able to support SSI (Server Side Includes).

For example, I have a web page on my site that I want to
include a portion of content (article) from another site.
When my web page loads, the #include statement on my page
performs a Get on the file that is listed from the other
site. So the user sees the article from the other site on my
page.

Website logs will show which sites, and how often, the file
was called from another site. An ad tracking package or Perl
script could be modified to track the flow from "affiliate"
sites.

Regards,

Michael

============================================================
Ham-bone Web & Multimedia
Specialists in website database integration and electronic
commerce
http://www.ham-bone.com
1-888-926-5020 US & Canada
1.770.926.5020 International



 -------------
 E-mail Corner
 -------------


[There are no posts to The E-Mail Corner today]


 -----------
 In The News
 -----------


INTERVIEW-Singapore moves towards E-commerce law

SINGAPORE, April 13 (Reuters) - Singapore unveiled plans on
Monday for a legal framework to push forward its ambition to
become an international hub for electronic commerce. 

http://www.internetnews.com/Reuters/law.html


 -------------
 The Corkboard
 -------------


***  FIRST TOPIC - InterNIC Archive Location  ***


From: Bj Kennedy 
Subject: Re: InterNIC Archive Location

Gary,

Where might we find this archive ?

>InterNIC News and its archive will remain in place through
>April 30, 1998, at which time InterNIC News will be retired
>permanently.

For all you do, this "Thanks!" is for YOU!

Bj

  Ms. Bj Kennedy ~ http://www.HealthcareAlternatives.com/bj.htm
  Small Business Consulting ~ Email, Fax & Traditional Marketing
  mailto:bjkennedy@usa.net ~ 540/ 745-3493 (10am-10pm ET)
  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +
  Authorized Agent for http://www.HealthcareAlternatives.com
  Your On-line Directory to Alternative Healthcare Resources


[Moderator's Reply]

Hi BJ,

Oops...  sometimes i forget the important things.  Thanks for
asking for the details.  And thanks also for the 'Thanks'.

The InterNIC News archive may be found at the following URL;

http://www.rs.internic.net/nic-support/nicnews/

Yuour Moderator,

Gary K. Foote


***  NEXT TOPIC - going up?  ***


From: Phil Doyle 
Subject: going up?

Today the ground floor of unprecedented height, 
a virtual sky scraper.
Tomorrow screaming for the top suite of limitless delight, 
the express e-commerce elevator.

Going up?
________________
Phil Doyle, President
http://DoyleMarketing.com
PO Box 1397  Santa Rosa, CA  95402 USA

mailto:Phil@DoyleMarketing.com
tel: 707-538-5043   fax: 707-579-1197


[Moderator's Comments]


Hi,

Thanks for posting the above thought for those among us with an
ear for the poetic, Phil.  

Ummmm...  you did intend it to be posted...  didn't you?  ;->

Your Moderator,

Gary K. Foote


 --------------------
 Question of the Week
 --------------------


Last Week's QOTW;

"How do You Differentiate Your
Business from Your Competition?"


***  RESPONSES  ***


From: Dee Power: AOJOURNAL 

How do we differentiate ourselves from the competition?

We offer something that nobody else does.  I don't know why our
competitors haven't thought of it yet.  But we're the first.  We
will be copied, I'm sure, but we will always be the first to have
done it.  And we will be able to say the original "XYZ".  

In case you're wondering our company runs a corporate dating
service.  We match entrepreneurs with investors, and buyers and
sellers of businesses with each other. No brokers. No
commissions.   What we are doing that nobody else has done, is
sponsor the first virtual venture capital conference on-line.
Like any conference there will be guest speakers, seminars, an
exhibit hall and of course, entrepreneur presentations. BUT,
unlike any other venture capital conference this will all take
place on-line!  The conference will be a four day event. Who
should attend? Investors, venture capital companies,
entrepreneurs looking for capital, or just getting ready to look
for capital. If you want more information send e-mail to
conference@capital-connection.com 

Dee Power

The Capital Connection helps entrepreneurs find capital, and
buyers and sellers of businesses find each, no commissions, no
brokers.
Visit us
http://www.capital-connection.com



***  NEXT RESPONSE  ***


From: Steve Mabel 

To answer the question of the week:

I have used two primary rules thoughout my career. Rule #1: The
customer is always right. Rule #2: If there are any difficulties
in working with a customer, refer to rule #1. It is a difficult
philosophy to follow sometimes but it works.

The bottom line of it is to give the customer unparalled service.
Go beyond what the customer expects. Always attempt to deliver
just a little more than what they pay for. If you consider the
"Golden Rule" when working with customers, and ask yourself what
you  would like a salesperson to do for you in the same
situation, do it for your customer and go one step farther. It
works.

Steve Mabel

-----

This Week's QOTW;

Do You Currently Market in Newsgroups?

Please Post Your "YES" Responses to:    
mailto:gkfoote@webbers.com?Subject=EMD-QOTW-YES

Please Post Your "YNO" Responses to:    
mailto:gkfoote@webbers.com?Subject=EMD-QOTW-NO

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