The E-Marketing Digest
 Volume #2,Issue #165
 April 24, 1998
 Gary K. Foote, Moderator

 Put the EMD Member's Button on your website.  Declare your 
 pride in participation while helping to build circulation.

 Table of Contents

 + Ongoing

    "Co-op Advertising"
       - Todd Mogren

    "Affiliate Programs"
       - Clay Cook

    "Charging for Information Online"
       - Douglas Freake

    "Focused Lead Generation Groups 
    (Was: Charging for Information Online)
       - Nancy Roebke

 + Website Issues

    "Internet Malls"
       - Richard Hauf
       - John Gerits
       - John McCabe

 + E-mail Corner

    "?Subject= Tag"
       - Joshua Reimer

 + In The News

    "ICat to Host Net Storefronts"
       - Gary K. Foote

 + The Corkboard

    "Contests as Marketing Strategies"
       - John Watkins

    "Inference Find"
       - Gary K. Foote

 + Question of the Week

    "Do you do your own online marketing, do you 
    use a service, or do you use both methods?"

       - Responses
          o Cynthia (Sunni) Freyer
          o Scott Kintz
          o Timothy Seims
          o Adam Creed
          o Allison Ector
          o Michele J. Johnson
          o John McCabe
          o Mel Eperthener


 Moderator's Comments

Hi all,

Happy Friday.  Today's issue covers a number of different topics.
Interesting place here lately.  :)  This week's QOTW has also
garnered a good-sized response, including some in-depth comments
by quite a few readers.  I leave you today with wishes for a
great weekend for everyone here.

And now, on with the show...

Your Moderator,

Gary K. Foote


***  FIRST TOPIC - Co-op Advertising  ***

From: Coastal Tool & Supply 
Subject: Co-Op Advertising

Hi Gary,

I posted to E-Tailors but am also a long time E-marketing
subscriber.  See additional info that you asked about below.

Thanks for your efforts on the list.  Thankless job but very
much appreciated.  I am sure any info on text ads would be of
particular interest to you. :)  Someone has to pay the bills! 


Hi Everyone,

Our on-line advertising budget is around $50,000 yearly.  Of
that amount, over $47,000 is Co-op money.  We concentrate on two
periods:  March - June and then again September-December so we
squeeze all of our dollars into 8 months instead of spreading
them out over 12.  It may seem like a minor point but we feel we
maximize our exposure that way.  Research has indicated that
users who see an ad more than once are more likely to click.  I
think that is even more true if they see an ad on more than one
site.  It certainly gives the impression that you are a larger
player in your category than you might be.  There are sites
where we have paid for a yearly  placement,
http://www.buyersindex.com ,  http://www.catalogfinder.com and
http://www.internetmall.com to list a few.

As far as text ad buys are concerned.  My personal feeling is
you get much wider play from these ads than banner ads.  We ran
sponsorships during the 4th quarter of 1997 in three
publications.  LE-digest, I-Sales and Mothers on the Web.  Our
feeling was that around the holiday period, everyone is a
potential customer.  That is not true for the most part the rest
of the year.  Results on these buys were mixed with the Mothers
on the web performing the best.  That has not discourage us from
using this method although we have decided to pursue a more
targeted audience.  The concept of co-op dollars for these types
of ads has been quite frankly a difficult sell.  We were
successful in using co-op money for the above three ads, but I
think it was only on a test basis.  Manufacturer's want the logo
displayed.  A mention on the company name is not enough.  

We hope that manufacturer's continue to pay for text based ads.
We are convinced that email based ads are a great value for the


Todd Mogren

Coastal Tool & Supply             http://www.coastaltool.com
248 Sisson Ave                        Free Email Newsletter 
Hartford CT 06105                   Free Factory Service Locator
860-233-8213                          Over 500 power tools
860-233-6295 Fax                   Tool Doctor

[Moderator's Comments]

Hi Todd,

Thanks for the additional details.  Wow!  94% of your ad budget
is paid for by your vendors.  All the other retailers on this
list should take note.

Your Moderator,

Gary K. Foote

***  NEXT TOPIC - Affiliate Programs  ***

From: Clay Cook 
Subject: Re: Affiliate Programs

In reply to John Gerits' post in  The E-Marketing Digest  Volume
#2,Issue #162  April 17, 1998 Part II

John's post could not have come at a more appropriate time in my

 offer a higher payout to a select few 

We created our own affiliate program at the start of this year
and already have close to 200 affiliates.

Although we are happy with the number of affiliates, only 5 of
these 200 are creating regular sales. The other 195 are just
slowing up our admin script when we wish to view statistics.

Just this morning we were considering the idea of restricting
entry based on traffic and the type of web site. We wish to
attract high traffic sites dealing in web promotion.

I would be very interested to hear others' opinion on the
benefits and drawbacks of this particular situation.


For those who are interested... Business Web is a web promotion
firm dealing mainly in submit plans (submit your web site to 300+
search engines). We offer 15% commission on ALL sales created by
affiliates (initial plus repeat sales).

Affiliate's Info Page...

Submit 300+ Page...

Kind Regards,
Clay Cook

Clay Cook
Business Web

[Moderator's Comments]

Hi Clay,

Qualifying your affiliates seems a logical approach to me.  In
fact I think that those who create 'shotgun' affiliate programs
will generally see less positive result than those who create
tightly targeted programs.  

Your Moderator,

Gary K. foote

***  NEXT TOPIC - Charging for Information Online  ***

From: Douglas Freake 
Subject: Re: Charging for Information Online

>Interesting stuff, Sunni.  The most interesting to me was the
>perception that something snail-mailed carries a higher
>value than one e-mailed.

I plan on releasing a new newsletter next month. I think Sunni
brings up a good point about Net users perceived value of content
in electronic and print format and its relationship with Net
culture. People on the Net and those new to the Net are being
lead to expect free stuff - especially information. Many
marketers on the Net believe that giving something away for free
is good marketing - but in the long run - this could be just
creating and sustaining a consumer attitude that in the end
erodes the perceived value of the user.

I plan to charge for my new newsletter. First, there will be both
Web and e-mail versions but I plan to move it to a print version
quickly partly because of the point Sunni brought up - people on
the Net have a lower perceived value of electronic content. This
could be due to the fact that people still like to have something
tangible for their money.

Douglas Freake   

[Moderator's Comments]

Hi Douglas,

> "...creating and sustaining a consumer attitude 
> that in the end erodes the perceived value..." 

IMHO the attitude is rooted deep in the past of the internet.
Remember, the internet was created with the express intent of
expediting the free exchange of information.  The historical
momentum faced by those attempting to convert for-free aspects of
the net to for-pay today is massive.  Will they succeed?

Your Moderator,

Gary K. Foote

 Put the EMD Member's Button on your website.  Declare your 
 pride in participation while helping to build EMD circulation.

***  NEXT TOPIC - Focused Lead Generation Groups  ***
                 (Was: Charging for Information Online)

From: "Nancy Roebke" 
Subject: Focused Lead Generation Groups

First, Gary...happy anniversary..

> Thanks for your post.  Great comments on the need to work at
> something to make it happen right.  thanks also for the hard
> numbers.  Interesting that 20% of your addresses 
> went 'bad' over
> a 2 year period.  Was this the first mailing to your list of
> prospects?

Yes, I'm embarrassed to say it was.. :)

> Your online lead generation groups sound 
> interesting.  Since they
> are 'category-exclusive' I assume there are a number of them to
> allow for more than one of each business type 
> to participate.  In
> fact, these sound almost like small, tightly focused 'affiliate
> networks'.  How many are there in existence? 

Right now, we have two online Chapters in prototype. I have been 
very happy with the leads I have gotten so far. I am in 
partnership with Paul Myers on this one and we are almost done 
with the website for the company. Once done, we will do all the 
required marketing. We are accepting new members for these two 
groups at this time.

> What is the cost?

Charter spots are $90.00US for the first year. Once the Charters 
are full, it's $120.00US a year. This is less than half of what 
my live Chapters cost.

> What is the specific URL?  So many questions...  ;->

You can get the details at;

mailto:jb-info@just-business.com (autoresponder)

There is participation required or a member will not get anything
out of their membership. But I find that to be true about
everything good in life.

Nancy Roebke
Execdirector@Profnet.Org        http://www.profnet.org
Learn to Network!
Increase income, cut costs, and put an end to cold calling.
Subscribe to our FREE newsletter that teaches you the secrets
of successful networking. mailto:subscribe@just-business.com !

ProfNet- Helping Business Professionals Find More Business 

 Website Issues

***  FIRST TOPIC - Internet Malls  ***

From: "ShopSafe" 
Subject: Response to John Vinokours comments about Internet Malls

I certainly appreciate the comments that were given in response
to my article written on the effectiveness of Internet Malls as
an advertising mechanism. John points out that "everyone's
searches are always vertical instead of horizontal - you look for
a particular product, or service, or piece of information" and
that internet surfers utilize their favorite search engine for
finding the products they desire. John has provided us all with a
very nice class lecture, but missed the main point, that is - how
easily can the small Mom & Pop retail websites be found searching
with a search engine. If I want to buy a new sweater and utilize
a search engine for finding a site that sells this product, do
you think that my search results will yield 5-10 listing for this
product. I don't think so. Mom & Pop's retail sweater site may be
listed below 350 other websites that have used "sweaters" in
their site meta tags. Do you think the consumer wanting to buy a
sweater will sit at the computer for half an hour and patiently
filter down to the Mom & Pop Sweater Store. Again, I don't think

This brings me precisely to my point - as the web continues to
explode as a means for effective retailing, the number of
retailing websites will continue to grow, and the possibility for
effective search engine positioning is lost. Now that the search
engines allow sites to purchase key words, the possibility for an
effective position is even more remote.

Richard Hauf

Over 90 of the internet's finest retailers and
growing everyday....only at the ShopSafeMall !



From: John Gerits 
Subject: Re: I-Malls - Effective or Not ??

ShopSafe  writes:

> ... in response to negative comments that have been expressed
> lately concerning the effectiveness of internet malls as
> marketing tools for internet retailers and service providers.

Please don't consider me being negative, but merely questioning
and expressing my opinion, thoughts to see what others think.

We are still in the early adopter stage, and I just don't see
this segment, going online "shopping" to head for a "I-Mall". Not
to say, traffic and some type of conversion is not there, but
IMHO, not anywhere near (visiting) that to an offline mall.

When I shop for CDs and books, I do not go to an I-Mall. (Give me
a reason why I should?) I go to the various direct sources to see
who has what I want and also the best price...There is no
difference in distance involved here...the distance is "CLICK".
Offline, I go to the mall to shop or consider it against a drive
further way as to what the trade off will be; "savings or
additional cost"

I think I-Malls would be great if we all were into virtual
reality experience. Experience being, IMHO, the keyword for the
Web, along with interactive. For an I-Mall to be successful at
pulling, IMHO, it has to offer an "experience".

What about when the masses are online, will they flock to the
I-Malls? I don't think so. IMHO, they are going to go direct (due
to ease of doing so and knowing the price will be less) or to
"community" settings because there will be an "experience" and
more. I'm talking consumer goods here. For service businesses,
consumers, I believe again will not look in I-Malls but more at a
simple search engine modeled after the Yellow Pages. For
business, it will also be a Yellow Pages type setup, as well as
network, and associations, and registries.
> Being the president of one of the internet's
> fastest-growing shopping directories - 

Fastest growing in tenants? Good for you! Fastest growing in
visitors? Great for your tenants! Fastest growing in conversion?
Even better for your tenants! What about providing numbers and %?

Ever see a offline mall be unsuccessful? No traffic,, merchants
leave, rates drop, new merchants come in, still no traffic...Some
malls close down, others, develop the mall into an "experience".
Pulling traffic not just by advertising, but aiming to make the
mall more than just a center of merchants.

> bottom line is if the merchant site has a unique product to
> sell, if their website is aesthetically-pleasing, easy to
> navigate, and consumer-friendly, conversion rate 
> should be high. 

What about MOST others that do not have a "unique" product?
Sorry, but it takes more than what you mention for a high
conversion rate; online or offline.

> What an internet mall listing should provide though is a
> substantial increase in traffic to the 
> merchant site, and should
> do so at a very cost-effective rate. You are basically paying
> for traffic.

Can an I-Mall, or your I-Mall provide better traffic than a
community? Maybe. But can you provide for a better conversion
rate for your tenant than he/she would obtain from a community at
maybe less traffic? I think not.

> It is all a numbers game! [snip] The more 
> traffic you can bring,
> the more sales you should generate.

In essence, it is a numbers game, but unfortunately not so
simplistic. One does not just want traffic. Just because you can
generate traffic, potential buyers does not mean I am going to
benefit. One wants prospects, more qualified. This is found more
in a community setting where even impulse buying has a better
chance than in a I-Mall, IMHO.

I am not an online marketing expert, just giving my thoughts. But
perhaps don't think like I-Mall as in offline mall, but rather
develop it as a community setting to pull "loyal" visitors. Do
so, and you offer more for your merchants.

John Gerits
G e r i t s - K n e e f e l  &  A s s o c i a t e s
        Strategic Management & Marketing Consulting
                    Will you be around tomorrow?
        mailto:gerits@dakine.demon.nl  ICQ#: 7900814

[Moderator's Comments]


This debate on the value of I-malls had been interesting and
there have been some valuable gems of information amongst the
debris of the debate. I'd like to hear more on is suggestions on
how to optimize an I-mall to increase both general and targeted
traffic.  I'll jump in with a suggestion of my own to start
things off.  Another follows in John McCabe's post;

 + Online events:  Lots of offline malls draw traffic by creating
newsworthy events, like a public appearance by a celebrity, or by
holding a blood drive.  An I-mall might hold a chat with a
celebrity or generate public interest by holding a 'give blood in
your local area' drive.  These are just off-the-top-of-my-head
examples and might or might not work, but I'd sure like to hear
some positive suggestions by others here.  Anyone?

Your Moderator,

Gary K. Foote


From: John McCabe 
Subject: I-Malls

In one of your responses, you wrote:

> Seriously, the concept of an online mall works best when it is
> centered around a common theme, like a clothing mall, 
> or an auto
> mall.  Of course you then have to spend time convincing those
> potential participants who see competition instead of
> cross-support that their renting 'mall space' is worthwhile."

I don't have personal proof, but it seems to me that some
subjects could be covered in a non-competitive way. For example,
one of my current projects is restructuring my Webtours Travel
Guide. I'm considering the "mall" approach, allowing only one
entry for a given market. If you run a fishing camp in Ontario,
you would be the only one in the mall. Your competition might be
a fishing camp in the Florida keys. Only one B&B within a
geographical area (say 50 miles), etc.

I'm interested in what other list members have to say.
John McCabe-------------------->jmccabe@web-guides.com
The Road to Financial Freedom starts at http://web-guides.com
24 hour info line --------------------------->1-800-814-9859
In business? Increase your cash flow every time you pick up the
phone and push "1". Email me for more information.

[Moderator's Commetns]

Hi John,

One of our clients has been toying with the same concept for some
time now.  Building a non-competitive community of closely
related sites would help any I-mall become a hub for their
industry.  Good thinking, John.

Your Moderator,

Gary K. Foote

 E-mail Corner

***  FIRST TOPIC - ?Subject= Tag  ***

From: Joshua Reimer 
Subject: Email Incompatibilities

>We just learned on E-Tailer's Digest that some e-mail programs
>don't handle e-mail correctly, especially 
>the ?Subject=  portion.
>Surprisingly MS Exchange is one of the culprits.

You know, my version of Eudora Lite also doesn't handle it.
It's never been a problem for me, as I have always cut and
pasted. I do wonder about others, though...

Needless to say, I don't use the ?Subject= tag in my email


Joshua Reimer    
Promotion World! 
   Learn How To Promote Your Site For Free!

[Moderator's Comments]

Hi Joshua,

Your comments, coupled with those by George in Wednesday's issue
have me thinking about all the work I have ahead of me,
converting as many of my filters from ?Subject= to forms based
triggers.  Looks like I'll be working a bit of overtime this

Your Moderator,

Gary K. Foote

 In The News

From: Gary K. Foote
Subject: ICat to Host Net Storefronts

Hi All,

Since we've been discussing converting free services to for-pay
services, as well as the viability of online malls, I thought the
following might make for good discussion material.  Do you think
this model will succeed in creating paying 'renters' or will they
simply load up with free sites?


ICat to Host Net Storefronts 
By Tim Clark
Staff Writer, CNET NEWS.COM
April 13, 1998

Hoping to lure small businesses online, e-commerce
software vendor iCat on Wednesday will launch a
new service hosting Web storefronts for merchants.

The new service, iCat Commerce Online, will be
free to merchants with ten or fewer items in their

Full Story:  


Your Moderator,

Gary K. Foote

 The Corkboard

***  FIRST TOPIC - Contests as Marketing Strategies  ***

From: The Simple Society 
Subject: Contests as Marketing Strategies

I have two reasons for sending a copy of a news release that's
going out by Email today. First, this is a first time effort for
us although I've been told many times that contests are excellent
ways to get the attention of critical constituencies. I'd like to
see a discussion of the fine points of using contests. Secondly,
I'm reasonably certain that your own constituencies are concerned
about issues similar to those on which this contest focuses. To
the extent this is true, I hope you'll pass the word to them by
any channels that are accessible to you.


The Simple Society, a non-profit organization dedicated to curing
the plague of unnecessary complexity, has announced a contest
designed to identify situations where laws, policies, rules, or
procedures create more problems than they solve.

John Watkins, executive director of the society, says that such
bureaucracy exists in businesses and professions as well as

To enter the contest, describe a complex situation, preferably
including a simpler alternative. For example, situations where:

*  it's impossible to obey one law without violating another

*  you can be sued no matter how you decide

*  the rules give unfair advantage to someone else

*  justice is denied

*  prices of goods or services are inordinately increased

*  the general "well-fair" is negatively affected

*  personal freedom is unnecessarily limited.

The contest ends June 30, 1998. Entries become the property of
The Simple Society and may be published.

The best entry each week will be awarded a five-year membership.
The best overall entry will receive a lifetime membership.

Entries should be Emailed to recommend@simsoc.org or mailed to
Solutions, The Simple Society, 303 Amherst Street, Nashua, NH

For more information:

John Watkins
mailto:johnw@simsoc.org   http://simsoc.org

***  NEXT TOPIC - Inference Find  ***

Hi All,

There's a new web-search tool in town...

Inference Find, self-billed as "The Intelligent Massively Fast
Parallel Web Search", is fast becoming one of my favorite search
tools.  Their own literature says it is a, "search tool that
calls out in parallel all the best search engines on the
Internet, merges the results, removes redundancies, and clusters
the results into neat understandable groupings".


Your Moderator,

Gary K. Foote

 Question of the Week

"Do you do your own online marketing, do you 
 use a service, or do you use both methods?"

 Please Post Your Responses to:    

***  RESPONSES  ***

From: "Cynthia (Sunni) Freyer" 

As we are a 16-year-old Public Relations/Marketing Communications
Agency, we do our own online marketing, primarily though taking
advantage of every opportunity possible for building
relationships and maintaining visibility. Our motto is "To
fulfill the yearnings of businesses and organizations to become
well-known and desired."  That combined with my aka -- Sunni --
help create memorability and incites questions. It is interesting
to see that the posts to date here have indicated that all are
doing their own online marketing.  Makes me wonder what online
service packages the do-it-yourselfers might have a need for that
is yet unmet online.   Also, it makes me recall counsel from PR
Agency management advisors that the worst firm to market your own
agency is your agency/firm.  Two totally different thoughts --
but that's what crossed my mind and caused an ache to type.

Sunni Freyer
CFNA Inc.: PR/Marketing


From:             scott@newestway.com

I have run some marketing through postmaster direct.  We have had 
good results and really BAD results.  We keep trying and learning 
what works and what does not. 

For the most part I do my own marketing and I run a web site that
my organization  uses.  However until now the members to my site
are usually not very proficient at using any of the follow-up
procedures that will get a lead to call you or close a sale.  

So we have implemented a Semi-Automatic follow-up system where
anyone of our members can pull up their leads and hit one button
from their browser and have a personalized email come up. They
can use the text edit box to edit the message from their browser
and then submit it.  Then when the email is sent a postcard is
put on the site that relates to the email they just sent.  So
they can PRINT it and follow-up through snail mail.  

I am excited about this new system and will share results as to
what personalized responses bring rather than lumping every one
of our leads into a data base and sending a common message.

So far this week I had a package order go out and that person
called me before I took the message off my email to confirm the
order. ************************************************** I also
run a weight loss site that I market products from.  Using the
same Interactive technology the leads that come to the site feel
a more personal service is given to them because each follow-up
is personalized based on the answers given in a quick survey.
http://newestway.com/wtloss/ CODE 2000

For the first time I have customers calling me after the first
visit wanting to have a few questions answered or to get started. 

Getting marketing leads is 20%. Making them comfortable with your
product or service is 80%.  That means a good follow-up system. 

Scott Kintz      |  425 672-7020 Phone
SJK Enterprises  |  425 712-8280 Fax
6203 227h St SW  |  scott@newestway.com
MLT, WA 98043    | 
CODE 1000
We work from home using mail order and the internet. 
We can show you how also.


From: "Timothy Seims" 

I am using a consulting company.

Tim Seims
LiveService via chat for customers of Internet merchants.
Seims@LiveService.com        http://www.LiveService.com
Phone:  1 202 625-0594 & 888 608-9818  Fax:  1 202 478-0447
3714 Calvert St., N.W., Washington, DC 20007; USA


From: Adam Creed 

We do our own online marketing.

Adam Creed - Editor

acreed@netspace.net.au | ICQ: 2060228 | Tel: (613) 9842 4949
T h e  I n s i d e  R u n n i n g - Internet News & Views

E to subscribe


From: Allison Ector 

We do our own marketing in-house, utilizing our dedicated
Marketing Department/Corporate Communications staff.  This
consists of a team of PR, advertising, traditional marketing, the
Spree Independent Partner (SIP)program and online marketing

Allison Ector
Manager of Online Marketing
Spree.com Superstores


From: "M. Johnson, POL" 

I do all of my own online marketing.  I market to various mailing
lists I am on and I occasionally obtain free spots in
newsletters.  I offer some free e-books from my site, therefore I
place notice on a good many of the freebie sites to draw people
from there as well.  I offer a contest on my site, with different
prizes every month.  And I recently entered into an arrangement
where I have donated prizes to a site and in exchange, they put
my company on their site in various places as well as in their
newsletter.  I would love to find other sites who offer this kind
of exchange, as I would like to do more of this.

I have paid for an ad recently in a business publication (online
newsletter) but I obtained very little response from that as
opposed to the methods I'm already using.  Eventually I might
enlist some help with marketing, but it's a while down the road
and only after I get so busy myself that I can't handle the time
that's involved.

Michele J. Johnson, CEO           mdjcpa@usit.net
Petals of Life  *or*
 ~Specializing in Electronic Books and
Handcrafted Limited Edition Books~ Check out our ~AnGewels~, a
new Petals of Life gift item!


From:             John McCabe 

I do my own marketing, both online and off. I will use free
services that make certain tasks easier, as long as I retain
control of the process.
John McCabe-------------------->jmccabe@web-guides.com
The Road to Financial Freedom starts at http://web-guides.com
24 hour info line --------------------------->1-800-814-9859
In business? Increase your cash flow every time you pick up the
phone and push "1". Email me for more information.


From:             Mel Eperthener 
Subject:          EMD-QOTW


At this time, we do all of our marketing in-house.  When we run
ads (such as in Val-Pak, Pennysaver, or on the radio), we
obviously use the services they provide, but I usually work
directly with them (this pertains more to our physical business).
However, I try to make sure that I am very involved with the
work, and as such, am not willing to pay a premium for the

So, as others have said, I do try to utilise free services if
available, but do as much as I can on my own, and am definately
there for final approval on everything, from the design phase on.

Online is an extension of what we do here.  As such, ALL
information about the physical location contains the URL and
contact info for online endeavours.  Beyond that, our main online
marketing consists of banners, recip links, a newsletter, and a
sig file.  Not only do we do all of this in house, but I make
sure that I do this personally.  Perhaps it's an old-fashioned
ideal, but this way I am ultimately responsible, and the success
or failure of the marketing rests solely right here.


--Mel Eperthener
president, Gowanna Multi-media Pty
email: bcassidy@usaor.net
419 Butler Street
PO Box 95184
Pittsburgh, PA 15223-0184
(412) 781-6140
(412) 781-6380


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