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The eMarketing Digest
© 1996 - 2008
Library of Congress
ISSN 1522-6913

Published by
Webbers Communications
686 Keene Rd. Suite B
Winchester, NH 03470
603-392-0090

 The E-Marketing Digest
 Gary K. Foote, Moderator
 Volume #2,Issue #173
 May 13, 1998
 ========================

 Put the EMD Member's Button on your website.  Declare your 
 pride in participation while helping to build circulation.
 http://www.webbers.com/emark/button.html

 ==========================================================

 The E-Marketing Digest Discount Pool 
 Group Registration Code = emd
 http://forums.delphi.com/m/main.asp?sigdir=emddiscountpool

 ==========================================================


 Table of Contents

 + Ongoing

    "Charging for E-pubs"
       - Larry Walker
       - Adam Boettiger
       - Jerry Fisk
       - Barb Sybal

 + Website Issues

    "Alternatives to Cookies"
       - William Bontrager

 + E-mail Corner

    ".sig Files"
       - George Matyjewicz

    "To .sig or Not to .sig"
       - Nancy Roebke

 + The Corkboard

    "Mac Text Editor"
       - William Bontrager

 + In The News

 + Question of the Week

    "What is involved in building brand awareness?"
        - Responses
           o George Matyjewicz
           o Amit Malik
           o Krishnan J. Iyer

 ================================================================

 ====================
 Moderator's Comments
 ====================


Hi All,

I'm the kind of person who forgets dates.  The only birthday I
remember is my own.  The only wedding anniversary I know is my
own.  I could go on, but you get the point.  So, its not too hard
to understand how I could let the one year anniversary of the EMD
go by without even a mention.  Did I really forget?  Yep, but
something made me look up the date of the first issue yesterday
and it turned out to be May 5, 1997.  So, I missed announcing it
on the actual date , but I'm here now, wishing the EMD a belated
Happy First Anniversary.

In that time we've grown to nearly 1300 subscribers in 43+
countries.  We've changed our focus from strictly e-mail
marketing to include all online marketing.  In fact I thought of
changing the name of this pub to "The O-Marketing Digest", but
E-Marketing already had momentum, so...

How shall we celebrate this auspicious occasion?  With a fanfare
[ta-da] and a 'circulation drive'.  So, if you know someone who
would benefit from subscribing to the EMD please pass them an
issue and point them to our website;

http://www.webbers.com/emark

And now, on with the show...

Your Moderator,

Gary K. Foote
Webbers Communications - "Website Designs with Marketing Smarts"
http://www.webbers.com                mailto:gkfoote@webbers.com


 =======
 Ongoing
 =======


***  FIRST TOPIC - Charging for E-pubs  ***


From: "Larry Walker - BlazePoint Communications"

Subject: Re: Charging for E-Pubs

Hi Gary and List Members,

Just about to head out the door but I felt I could throw in some
quick information regarding...

on 5/11/98 Gary K. Foote (moderator/EMD) wrote:
-----snip----------
It seems to me that creating a book out of past issues of your
list would mean getting the permission to reprint from each
subscriber whose list posts would be included.  Are there any
legal eagles on-list who know whether or not I am correct?
-----snip---------

I believe that you can circumvent any possible copyright
infringement problems by affixing a release of copyright notice
to each digest and on the web site stating simply that *By
posting your message to the XXX Discussion list you agree to
forfeit any rights as to use and distribution of your message by
the moderator including but not limited to publication in our
quarterly print digest.* Make sure it's prominent, known to all
members and include it in your welcome message and you shouldn't
have any problems. (I would still recommend running this past
your attorney, but he/she should give you a yay or nay for free.
:)

-----snip----------
To increase its 'saleability' you
should also add value that was not present in the original
issues, like the charts you mentioned.  Other possibilities that
come to mind are resource lists, purpose-written articles, a
links directory, etc.  Other ideas anyone?
-----snip----------

Great point Gary. The material needs to be compelling enough to
make people want to fork over their money. Charts? Yes, it's nice
to see some charts but real "Meat" is necessary. Add some guest
pieces from established net pro's. Give them a cut of your net if
you don't have extra cash available up front. Everyone has some
figures or information that is, how should I say this, "hard to
find". ;) Include some of your closely guarded resources. You
don't have to sell out every item and every edge you have, but
you simply must add value beyond just a print version of the
posts with some "pretty graphics".

I too, think the idea has great promise. But if you decide to
take the plunge with it, be sure you have enough "value" added
before wasting alot of money on production. I would suggest doing
some detailed market research before laying down too much money
on the idea. Get some focus groups or surveys going and see what
people really "Want" and what they will "Pay For". Research and
testing go a *long* way towards insuring success, don't skimp in
this area.

Regards,
Larry Walker
____________________________________
Director of Operations
BlazePoint Communications
http://www.blazepoint.com
lwalker@blazepoint.com
voice: 804.541.1616
fax: 804.541.1606


[Moderator's Comments]

Hi Larry,

Thanks for posting before you went out the door.  Your disclaimer
covers the bases alright, but I wonder about its language.  The
idea that posting to a list requires that you 'forfeit' something
is likely to negatively impact list participation.  I propose the
following, similar statement.  It covers the same ground but is
more positive in nature.

-----
By posting your message to the XXX Discussion 
list you agree to give permission to the list 
publisher, [insert name here], for full use and 
distribution of your message, including but 
not limited to, publication in the XXX 
Discussion list print version, titled [insert 
publication name here].
-----

Also, thanks for the reminder about performing research before
committing to spending $$$.  Too many people forget this step.

So let's consider... (These questions are for everyone here)

1) If Webbers Communications offered a printed version of the EMD
each quarter, what kind of added value would prompt you (everyone
here) to consider its purchase?  

2) Would the knowledge that your posts might be included in a
print version of the EMD be a negative thing or a positive thing
for you?  

3) Would you still post?  

4) Would you become a lurker?

5) Would you unsubscribe?

Your Moderator,

Gary K. Foote


***  SAME TOPIC - NEXT POST  ***


From: "e/y/e/s/c/r/e/a/m - Adam Boettiger" 
Subject: Charging for E-pubs

Doug Freake wrote:

>Selling advertising is just like trying to sell a product
>or service - it's a 'sell' no matter how you look at it. If one
>has a quality e-pub the subscribers should be willing to pay for
>the content - if they are not willing to pay - how worth while
>is the content?

Doug is right on the money that an e-pub is a different animal
than a discussion list.  I'd like to also point out that selling
advertising on an e-pub is an entirely different matter than
moving to a subscription-based model for an e-pub.
They are apples and oranges.

Your comment about how if people are unwilling to pay
that the content is not worthwhile is a very poor correlation.
On the Internet people are used to getting something
for nothing.  With the majority of content being freely
available at no cost, it is extremely difficult making a
subscription-based model work online for e-pubs, and
it has nothing to do with the content being worthwhile or
not.

A terrific example is Andy Bourland's cluster of e-pubs
owned by ClickZ http://www.clickz.com/ .  The content
is some of the best on the Internet, yet it is free.   The
inherent
value - and why he does not charge for it - is that he is well
aware that he can generate far more subscribers by not charging
for it, and generate more passalong.  More subscribers =
greater advertising revenues.  IMHO advertising revenues for
an e-pub are FAR more lucrative than anything one would hope
to gain by charging subscription fees, and far easier on the
bookkeeper! 

There are very few instances online right now where subscription-
based models have worked successfully for e-pubs.  I can count
them on one foot, less my big toe.   Make the content killer, so
your subscribers tell ten friends about your e-pub, but don't put
up a fee-barrier to subscribing - simply take on sponsors and
sell advertising.

AB
List Moderator, The Internet Advertising Discussion List
http://www.internetadvertising.org/

--------------e/y/e/s/c/r/e/a/m interactive,inc.----------------- 
adam boettiger - e: mailto:ab@eyescream.com
vice president, advertising & marketing
t: (503) 292-6987 Ext. 16 / f: (503) 296-0945
traffic building, strategic partnering, new media planning, 
killer creative and design that will make you s/c/r/e/a/m 
portland, oregon (usa)
----------------< http://www.eyescream.com >-----------------


[Moderator's Comments]


Hi Adam,

Thanks for posting your thoughts.  Selling ads on e-pubs and
discussion lists is fast becoming one of the net's most popular
methods of generating revenues.  I wonder though, how many
list/e-pub owners are making a *living* with this activity alone?

Your Moderator,

Gary K. Foote


***  SAME TOPIC - NEXT POST  ***


From: Jerry Fisk 
Subject: "Charging for Information Online"


Hi everyone, you got me out of the de-lurking mode on this
subject I hope I am not to late to post But I am building my new
website and have been busy lately.

When the site is built I too will offer a newsletter. I will
offer it free and will never consider charging a subscription.
Here is the reason why:

I subscribe to about two dozen E-zines. Many of you probably
subscribe and participate to many more. If you had to pay a
subscription to all of them, say $ 20.00 annually or more, It
could expensive. For my two dozen at $ 20.00 annual charge, (I
would pay that for some but not all.) the total would be $ 480.00
a year. That is a big cut in my budget that I could use placing
adds in those very E-zines. I will add and subtract E-zines as I
grow so the cost could go up. If a publisher has a very small
niche and produces a high quality content E-zine, perhaps that
would be different.

Well that's my two cents worth, hope it is useful in
understanding why some may be reluctant in paying a subscription
price.

BTW Gary, I enjoy this E-zine. It's one I would consider paying
for.(o:

Jerry Fisk

CyBerNet-2001 "Promoting the Internet for Fun and Profit"
Autoresponders, "Cheaper By The Dozen" E-Mail for more info:
mailto:respond@fiscoent.com?subject=respond


[Moderator's Comments]

Good point, Jerry.  If all lists cost money I think there would
be a lot fewer lists with a lot less cross-over of subject
matter.  Might be a good thing for consumers, but not so good for
publishers.

Your Moderator,

Gary K. Foote


***  SAME TOPIC - NEXT POST  ***


From:               "B.A. Sybal" 
Subject:            Paid subscripton base

Hi, Gary,

If the subject isn't dead yet, after sending my last fairly
harsh message, I did think of something that might work,
but I'll let you (and others if you post this to the list)
be the ultimate judge.

As a subscriber, I do realize the value of the discussion
list (formerly e-pub, but I don't want to argue semantics
with anyone) and here's what I envision might work
to garner a few greenbacks:

    - offer paid space to "contributors", not
    advertisers, wherein a contributor, such
    as Danny Sullivan (sorry to use Danny
    as an example, but I know he's quite
    well known and also offers information
    for sale) will offer information and how-to's
    that lead to their site.

By combining paid contributions, perhaps on
a bi-monthly basis, together with subscriber-based
comments and questions, I think this will lead
to a winning publication.

I see it as a win-win situation --- the subscription
remains free; contributors offer value-added
information, which will lead subscribers to
their site, and the publication generates
income for both contributors and moderator,
who will then become an editor :)

I realize that many contributors probably have
their own discussion/mailing lists, but by
combining all the resources, bartering/charging
each other for space/contributions, the
subscription base could easily become in
the 10's of thousands in a short period
of time.

All moderators have the same goal in mind
and I can't think of a better way than to
join forces and offer subscribers something
that they may be willing to pay for in a
year's time or less.

    Barb

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
My Sentiments(TM) Greeting Cards
Supplying greeting cards
    to retailers since 1996
1-888-278-3672 (Canada & US)
+1 (905) 828-7399 ~ +1 (905) 828-4143 (Fax)
http://www.mysentiments.com
greetings@mysentiments.com
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


[Moderator's Comments]

Hi Barb,

Thanks for posting on this topic again.  Since the thread began I
have learned that there is a big difference between an e-pub and
a discussion list.  I used to lump them together, but in terms of
getting paid for publishing them, I now see them as, to
paraphrase L. Frank Baum, 'horses of quite different colors'.
The differences are 1) content sources and 2) frequency of
delivery.  

As you suggested, bartering with other list and e-pub owners for
ad space is a great way to develop a subscriber list.  Once you
reach a 'critical mass' you have the numbers to begin adding paid
ads to your publication.  What is that 'critical mass'?  There
are rough guidelines, but I think each publication is different
to some degree and close targeting will yield paid advertising
before general audience publications.  How much to charge?  Well,
there are some who offer as baseline, $30 CPM (cost per thousand
impressions), but I think each pub will eventually develop its
own value.  Like printed magazines and newspapers, everyone
charges a different fee.  Why should online be different?  Not
that you posted about advertising...  these questions just came
to mind.

Your Rambling Moderator,

Gary K. Foote


 ==============
 Website Issues
 ==============


***  FIRST TOPIC - Alternatives to Cookies  ***


From: William Bontrager 
Subject: Re: Alternatives to Cookies

>Dave Bredeweg wrote:
>
>> Personally I have never had a 
>> problem with permitting cookies,
>> but this seems to be a major 
>> concern for many. If so, what is
>> there currently that suppliers 
>> could use to record referrals?
>
>Then Gary K. Foote wrote:
>
>The first thing that comes to mind is to set up separate order
>pages for each affiliate.  Code the form return with the
>affiliate's ID and you're set.  Any other ideas?

I'm assuming the affiliate program promises to pay commissions on
repeat visits. Therefore, the following refers to repeating
visitors.

Customer's willingness to type in an ID/account number of sorts
would make for an easy tracking system (but who would expect
customers to willingly go out of their way to do that or even
remember their account number?). I believe no other foolproof way
exists.

Even cookies are not foolproof. Some people frequently delete
their cookies. Other's surf the net with more than one machine.
(Both situations are true for us. On our Win98 operating system,
file space is reserved in 1k blocks; no matter how small the
cookie, it will reserve at least 1k of disk space for itself. As
web designers, we use both Win and Mac computers.) Also, multiple
people, single computer households abound. Some browsers can't
handle cookies. Some people disable cookies.

Having a separate entry page for each affiliate isn't foolproof.
Visitor's are prone to mess with the URL in their browser's
address bar. Curiosity, I suppose, "Let's see what I get if I
delete everything up to the slash."

Urging customers to bookmark your entry page or any other page on
your site is operating on hope. Bookmark chaos is rampant -- not
everyone is as organized as you are.

One partial solution could be this:

Code the shopping cart to kick in when a visitor first arrives
rather than when something is first ordered. That way, the
visitor can be tracked with one program, from arrival to
departure. This may require generating web pages on-the-fly.

If browser can use cookies and visitor allows it: Do normal
cookie things.

Else: Ask for account name and/or number either when visitor
arrives (could be a turnoff) or when they order (until they
order, visitor can be tracked by referrer, if any, and by host
address). Account number could be visitor's e-mail address (a
drawback here is that many people have multiple e-mail addresses
and they would now be required to remember which one they've been
using at your site).

If name and/or number resolves into an affiliate's ID: Continue
like normal cookie things.

Else: Treat as if this is a new account.

If seeming new account: When visitor orders, scan past orders for
same/similar name, address, credit card number, telephone number,
etc. (May wish to verify with customer when similar data is
found.)

If visitor data still does not resolve into an affiliate ID, then
there is a relatively high probability that this is truly a
first-time visitor and a new account is warranted.

This is not 100% foolproof. People move. They change ISPs.
Affiliates drop out. But it is better than relying only on
cookies.

Sincerely,

William Bontrager
               -=+=-
WillMaster -- The Bontrager Connection:
  Awesome web site and graphic design.
     Screaming hot CGI programming.
       http://www.willmaster.com/ 
All our unique sites are linked at
http://www.willmaster.com/connection/ 


[Moderator's Comments]

William, I think you've presented a well thought process,
covering seemingly all possibilities.  Now, if someone here would
like to develop the product I will handle the marketing.

Your Moderator,

Gary K. Foote


 =============
 E-mail Corner
 =============


***  FIRST TOPIC - .sig Files  ***


From: Rainmaker 
Subject: Re: .sig Files

>I noted on Ray's list that he suggested people keep their sig
>files to the basics like name, address etc. because it was not
>fair to paid advertisers. Do you think e-mail discussion lists
>which rely on paid advertisers should cut out the sig files? We
>are on these lists for the content and not the hidden classified
>ads right?

The usual guide used by most list owners/moderators is a sig line
no longer than 6 lines.  In E-Tailer's Digest, I will trim excess
lines off a sig file.  It should contain info about you and your
services, and an area to direct folks to who need more
information.

IMO, sig files are very similar to on-line press releases.  When
you send a press release by mail or fax you provide a lot more
detail.  On-line you provide limited information -- the shorter
the better (under 500 words, preferably under 250 words) and you
direct folks to more information at your site.  

Now, if you will note, since I was able to turn this thread into
a perfect opportunity to discuss my expertise, I made sure that
my sig line addressed the issue ;-}.

George
_________________________________________________________
Automated Press Releases to 7,600+ on-line media contacts 
in 37 countries.           http://www.gapent.com/pr/
GAP Enterprises, Ltd.      mailto:gapinfo@gapent.com
http://www.gapent.com
Tel: (201) 939-8533       Fax: (201) 460-3740


***  SIMILAR TOPIC - To .sig or Not to .sig  ***


From: "Nancy Roebke" 
Subject: No more sig lines? NOT!!


> I noted on Ray's list that he suggested people keep their sig
> files to the basics like name, address etc. because it was not
> fair to paid advertisers. Do you think e-mail discussion lists
> which rely on paid advertisers should cut out the sig files? We
> are on these lists for the content and not the hidden
classified
> ads right?

I have seen this argument on a few lists and have left lists 
because this was enforced. If we, as a small business community 
want to encourage commerce in a structured and productive 
format online, sig files have long proved themselves as an 
answer to that. I would not want lists to be just ads for 
people's services. I would leave those lists as fast as I would
leave a list where I can share and share and share and get 
nothing in return. Nothing, that is , without my sig file.

In answer to your question, No I am not here just for the 
content. I am here for that. I am also here to find suppliers. I 
am here to find clients. I am here to find independent 
contractors to work for me. I am here to share what I know, but 
I want... I EXPECT to get back in return. And there will go long 
periods on some lists before I see any CONTENT that I don't 
already know.

That isn't to say I don't get CONTENT that is helpful to me and 
my firm. But with so many NEW people joining the ranks of the 
online small business communities, the same threads tend to go 
around and around and around again. For those of us who have been 
online a while, sig files offer an opportunity to feel like our 
time online is RECIPROCAL. Not that we are just GIVING but that 
we are GETTING in return. 

Speaking of that, I feel a need to start a crusade. The next 
time someone offers you something of value to you, when you 
thank them for their help (and you DO thank them, right?), 
include the folowing in your post to them:

Your information was very helpful to me. What can *I* do to help 
you?

When was the last time someone said that to you? when was the 
last time YOU said it to someone else?

Respectfully,

Nancy Roebke
Execdirector@Profnet.Org        http://www.profnet.org
--
Learn to Network!
Increase income, cut costs, and put an end to cold calling.
Subscribe to our FREE newsletter that teaches you the secrets
of successful networking. mailto:subscribe@just-business.com !

ProfNet- Helping Business Professionals Find More Business 


[Moderator's Comments]

Hi Nancy,

Good stuff.  I just have to say, "Your information was very
helpful to me. What can *I* do to help you?"

Your Moderator,

Gary K. Foote


 =============
 The Corkboard
 =============


From: William Bontrager 
Subject: Re: Mac Text Editor

BBEdit Lite (and the commercial version) allows unlimited text
sizes. Search for it on shareware sites with Macintosh software.

William

               -=+=-
WillMaster -- The Bontrager Connection:
  Awesome web site and graphic design.
     Screaming hot CGI programming.
       http://www.willmaster.com/ 
All our unique sites are linked at
http://www.willmaster.com/connection/ 



 ===========
 In The News
 ===========


 ====================
 Question of the Week
 ====================

 "What is involved in building brand awareness?"

 Please Post Your Responses to:    
 mailto:e-mark@buck.ncia.net


***  RESPONSES  ***


From: Rainmaker 

On E-Tailer's Digest we have two world-renowned branding
specialists - Jacques Chevron and Dr. Larry Lockshin -- both of
whom have developed branding strategies for major clients.  In
today's issue (Monday) they both posted some interesting comments
on this topic.  One of our members asked whether banner ads will
build brand equity.  The answer was not necessarily -- unless you
already have an established brand.

What does help create a brand?  Positive repetition is primary.
Seeing your name constantly and consistently.  If today you are
touting Web Design and tomorrow you are touting books, you are
not building a brand image.  Your target audience needs to see
your message clearly and frequently.
     
Brand image is not merely your name.  It has to be positive
association with your name.  What makes you better than everybody
else?  Why should I buy your "brand?"  I'll give you a primary
example of branding with a small company -- meep!  Everybody who
wants to develop a BBS system (on NT's) has heard of meep!, yet
they are a small company with a great idea, and a good message.

George

_______________________________________________________
George Matyjewicz             "Rainmaker Extraordinaire"
Managing Partner              http://www.gapent.com/
GAP Enterprises, Ltd.         mailto:georgem@gapent.com
Tel: (201) 939-8533 Ext 821   Fax: (201) 460-3740
Automated Press Releases: http://www.gapent.com/pr/
Specializing in Professional Firm "Rainmaking" programs.


***  NEXT RESPONSE  ***


From: "Amit Malik, The Column Jockey Inc." 

Allow me to break this in to two parts:

What you should have for building brand awareness...
1. A distinctive & unique "logo."
2. An unique, easy to remember Name.
3. An easy to remember punch line.

What you could do for building brand awareness...
2. Do Reciprocal links.
3. Join Business Web Rings, newsgroups  & mailing lists.
4. Advertise on high density websites.
5. Promote a "prospect vehicle." 
6. Do contests, sweepstakes, give-aways... 
7. Network.
8. Run an Associate Program.
9. Write, get interviewed and get written about.
10.Sig files.

11. Think of a unique promotional idea. [Although one may say
that it's difficult to have one. When you have it, it beats
everything. Eg: Hotmail (worth 400 Million US$ in just 2 years),
Yahoo, LinkExchange... EMD!)... if you are thinking, "What the
h***?! We were talking of products. These are all services... "
BINGO! You are on the right track!]

PS: The last promotional option (#11) gives you a  mind boggling 
exposure if you know where to and how to do it.

Best,
Amit. 

AWARD WINNING must-subscribe FREE Business Webzine for 
small businesses: Monday Magazine. This week's topics include...
* The Truth About Business Development & Generating Revenue.
* Colon Slash Slash WWW
* The Nightmare Audit... and how you can avoid it!
Get your FREE copy at http://goodppl.hypermart.net/mon.html
or text by autoresponder: mon_mag@goodppl.hypermart.net


***  NEXT RESPONSE  ***


From: Krishnan J iyer 

>> "What is involved in building brand awareness?" <<

Interesting. While doing my MBA studies, the strategies for
conventional market products were based on the PLC (Product Life
Cycle) and the product managers called it "Going for the Kill" to
build brand awareness which created some level of loyalty among
users. 

But Internet is such a fluid market, that competing products flow
in every other minute and wash away any brand loyalty. The
expectation of the most that the market tend to go the
traditional way, where the investments are high  was not true
either. That's scaring isn't it? 

Well, I for one, look forward to views from you all, since an
overview analysis gives is entirely different results than the
conventional market products gave. 

And that's good one to discuss, Nick.


Krishnan J iyer
bcmfax.net
Redefining Global Fax Communications
krish@bcmfax.net
http://www.bcmfax.net


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